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AllanGardyne
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Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:00 pm
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| mattie wrote: | | Please don't tell me with your success Allen and with the staff you have that internet marketing has told you how to handle all that? That learning about google adwords has taught you how to handle the tax man? That buying the latest ebook about search engine submission has taught you when and where to best invest the profits of your business. |
No, of course not. That's why I asked you for more details. I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm genuinely interested.
I've had to learn the hard way. I knew absolutely nothing about running a business, handling staff efficiently, setting up systems. If I'd had a decent financial adviser (that I'd listened to) 10 years ago, it would have been an enormous help. Ten years ago I thought I need to learn Internet marketing. I didn't understand that I needed to learn how to build and manage a business. I don't think that thought even entered my head.
But I wouldn't rubbish keyword research, PPC advertising, article publishing, etc., etc. All those can be elements of a successful business. But there are lots of other options online.
I assume your financial adviser is highly successful himself?
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mattie
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:58 am
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Sorry if I came across defensive, unlike some people on forums, I?m not here to cause offence.
The problem was that I tried Allen...., for years I tried and followed the 'Usual' advice and became very frustrated and saw little or no results and no affiliate sales.
Of course being in fulltime work, my time was limited, but I just thought I would have seen more than what I ended up with, which was next to nothing.
My FA doesn't have a particular experience when it comes to the internet but he mumbled that two men have become millionaires through his advice and he's had alot of success making others successful.
He?s helped me to organise myself and focus more on specific tasks. He?s knows less about specific internet marketing techniques than I do but he understands small businesses.
Yes he's taught me a few ...... let's say promotional techniques, which I don't want to share at this point in time.
I...... also recognise that there is more than one way to become successful on the internet, but I also recognise that the effectiveness of the 'usual' ways are diminishing.
I believe that there is either a lack of real effective advise from the usual 'gurus' (my FA puts it in a less polite manner) and I believe that there is a whole heap of misleading information. people want the interent dream, no the truth!
I also know that most material is rehashed, but I also know that there is a great market for rehashed junk advice (it seems).
| Quote: | | I assume your financial adviser is highly successful himself? |
I?m not allowed to share with you who he is right now, but he's done the usual, TV, radio programs, he's just got back from presenting a seminar in Singapore (he's been out there a few times, they like him for some reason  )
he doesn't have a mega web presence and I don't ask him about his income but he looks to be doing better than me right now, so I guess he's successful  .
When I put away the..... no.? when I blocked out most of what I?ve learned over the last few years about internet marketing and followed this persons advice things have started to happen. I admit I?ve got a way to go but at least they are happening.
I?m embarking on a new project soon I hope to explain more when it's finished.
I just think that sometimes Allen we expect too much from ourselves. I believe to a certain degree, that this 'get rich quick on the net' mentality is ingrained in 99.9% of us. The internet is getting tougher and I don't think people truly understand that.
I think most of the time we hear and say such things but it really doesn't sink in. but I?ve spent too much time and effort to give up.
My question to my fellow forum members is, do you want a successful website or a successful business? The two are not the same!
Will the gurus ever stop? No of course not, as long as they have a market why should they stop? But I?ve stopped buying there ebooks and stopped buying into there nonsense advice (my FA just says "yeah it's rubbish!"). I?m beginning to see what is good and bad advice now and it's a real eye opener.
do I believe that the CEO of Amazon or ebay receives the same advice that we get in a $97 ebook?... no I don't...... no I don't, and my FA agrees with me.
I believe that there are however very ethical people online. I think you're honest Allen, I think Ken Evoy is very ethical although I couldn't stand MYSS, or SBI (far too expensive) but I loved MYCS.
But ALLEN there are too many deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous gurus out there who just continue to pump out this continual line of junk because they can, even the big names. (i know you'll probably won't like that comment)
I believe that some people like yourself and Ken are genuinely trying to help! But I believe that you are in a servere minority. I can count on one hand whose advice I trust, and i reallly mean that. Even some of your recommendations I don't trust Allen because I?ve have bad experiences! I trust you, I just don't trust them! i hope you understand that?
I did try to impliement what i was taught from the 'usual' crowd, and i was dissapointed. My FA is helping me out of that hole.
anyway before i get banned from your forum i'll stop here for now. |
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AllanGardyne
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:40 am
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Well, I suppose I should ban you for misspelling my name umpteen times, but I can't think of any other reason.
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dotdash
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:56 am
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I'm sure your FA is right about a lot of things, particularly the gurus and their repackaging of old *secrets*. I think they have such a market because so many people are looking for easymoney/get rich quick schemes so they continue to buy the latest greatest thing.
I'm building a business with SBI! which does teach you how to actually build a successful longterm business. From the very beginning the process teaches you about approaching your business from the right angle. I think for it's price it's incredible value compared to some of the other 'guru' stuff out there, especially the over $1000 stuff and the expensive membership sites. Just out of curiosity, How much are you paying for your FA and what other costs are involved in your next project?
I've bought a lot of stuff and fallen victim to the program of the month thing looking for shortcuts and believing the hype. I now know that if I had kept on my 'SBI! blinkers' I'd be a lot better off financially and timewise. I haven't found anything that adds to what I'm learning from SBI! it is the whole 'business package' in 1. It's certainly teaching me all I know about business building online. The financial stuff and staff management etc I will learn about when the time comes but for the meantime I'm a 1 man operation and my financial goal is to not buy any more hyped up products and unsubscribe from any guru who keeps trying to sell them to me.
I think the distinction to make is the difference between 'building a business' and 'making money online'. In the Internet Business Manifesto Rich Sheffren pointed out the difference between opportunistic and strategic thinking and talked a lot about not jumping on 'the program of the month' it's a shame he then later tried to sell me a program of the month telling me that if I didn't buy it I didn't 'get it'??
I'm very glad I bought SBI! I just only wish I hadn't strayed and spent all that money on opportunistic ways to 'make money online'. If I'd stuck with steadily building my SBI business I'd be a lot further on than I am now. A painful lesson learnt the hard way.
The gurus will keep repackaging old info and promoting each other's stuff in the same hyped up way creating urgency and saying things like 'If you don't get this then you just don't get it' I just unsubscribed from another list for being told those exact words, shame - because I liked this guy's newsletter and thought his overall ethic was sound. It probably is but either way I will not be told that if I don't buy the program (seminar in this case) I don't 'get it'
What I do get is that there are ways to fail and ways to succeed. To me success comes from thinking long term and building a business that will last and not have to keep up with things like search engine algorithms. In short, a business that will help people and provide useful information that visitors like, other sites will link to without having to be asked to and that will grow and earn income for years to come. Think about your visitor experience first, work with the search engines and the money will come.
Focus on the money first, look for loopholes and easy money, do not do anything to actually add any value to the web and you'll be constantly chasing the program of the month, trying to keep up with the latest SEO 'tactics', probably working 10+ hours a day for minimal results if any. Things are only going to get harder for opportunistic 'make money online' people, SE algorithms will work toward dropping trashy spammy moneymaking sites and favouring genuine quality content sites. Google will keep changing rules to fliter out loophole abusers for programs like Adsense and Adwords. The programs of the month will become outdated and new ones will pop up.
Ultimitely the days of making 'easy money online' will be a thing of the past - which is good news for the rest of us who are working hard at building long term businesses that provide real value to real people
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robertb
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:10 pm
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Something just to keep in mind: if you're paying anyone for advice, be it a FA, etc., then it's in their best interests to keep you as a client.
Of course this would involve making themselves good and others bad. Personally, I find it disturbing when advisers are take the time to tear everyone else down, rather than let their advice speak for itself.
I'm not doubting that this FA hasn't helped you (or others) or said some truth, but the fact that he doesn't really have an Internet presence says a lot to me about his experience in that realm. Sounds like he's more experienced with smaller, brick-n-mortar businesses, which are a radically different animal than an Internet business.
A real life example for me is real estate and building spec homes. I'm interested in getting into it someday and met a guy that does it for a living, building eight $400-$500K homes this year. He has real experience in his field and I would take his advice anyday over a plain-jane financial adviser that has never built a home, let alone invested in real estate himself.
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mattie
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:11 pm
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| sorry ALLAN! |
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mattie
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:17 pm
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dotdash wrote:
| Quote: | | How much are you paying for your FA and what other costs are involved in your next project? |
I?m in a very favourable position with my FA, it costs me next to nothing and I?ve never asked him what he charges.
My next project is not so much internet marketing but I just want to have my say. I?m not trying to teach others how to make money, I think that it's truly a skill that is reserved for a few, but I do have my experiences and my opinion.
So I?m not going to tell you how to make 1 million bucks or anything I just want to have my say. Of course I have a bit of in-depth knowledge with my FA by my side, but it won't be heavy. It?s not my usual market, and I don't proclaim to be an expert, I just know rubbish info when I see it.
| Quote: | | SBI! It is the whole 'business package' in 1. It's certainly teaching me all I know about business building online. The financial stuff and staff management etc I will learn about when the time comes but for the meantime I'm a 1 man operation and my financial goal is to not buy any more hyped up products and unsubscribe from any guru who keeps trying to sell them to me. |
I tried it a few years ago and I really couldn't get on with it, but if it works for you, you run with it, and as I?ve said Ken Evoy is one of the most ethical people on the net today.....I truly believe that.
| Quote: | | In the Internet Business Manifesto Rich Sheffren pointed out the difference between opportunistic and strategic thinking and talked a lot about not jumping on 'the program of the month' it's a shame he then later tried to sell me a program of the month telling me that if I didn't buy it I didn't 'get it'?? |
I saw that video seminar on his blog and he marked out about 85% of what I?m learning, but he like everyone else is trying to market, push products, and find an opening. In a way we all do it! (I hope I don't offend you with that comment)
| Quote: | | The gurus will keep repackaging old info and promoting each other's stuff in the same hyped up way creating urgency and saying things like 'If you don't get this then you just don't get it' |
vie just learnt that there will always be another 'idea' other 'opportunities' so I don't react at all to that kind of call to action.
| Quote: | | Ultimitely the days of making 'easy money online' will be a thing of the past - which is good news for the rest of us who are working hard at building long term businesses that provide real value to real people |
I?m kind of 98% with you there, but don't you think dotdash that there'll always be those who slip the net so to speak?
robertb wrote:
| Quote: | | Something just to keep in mind: if you're paying anyone for advice, be it a FA, etc., then it's in their best interests to keep you as a client. |
of course and whilst he's helping me create an income I?m more than willing to be one of his clients. Most material that I got from 'gurus' just drained my bank account. If we're not suppose to re-invent the wheel, then how much marketing material does it take to tell us that the 'wheel is round'
I.e. I don't need to spend $67 to be told how to do joint ventures again. I don't need to spend $147 on an ebook claiming to have a new system, only to find out that the ebook is one big sales letter, and to complete this new system you have to buy alot of expensive and over complicated, unsure-friendly software (you know who you are).
I?m beyond that nonsense, but most of us will go through that. I?m not ashamed; I?ve just got abit savvier.
| Quote: | | Sounds like he's more experienced with smaller, brick-n-mortar businesses, which are a radically different animal than an Internet business. |
A brick and mortar business, a website your front yard is only how you present your business, it's not your business. I could have a shop selling what I promote online.
Allan could stick a sign outside his office that says 'affiliate consultant' and market his knowledge amongst a client base and never have the website that he does. but he's chosen to take his ideas and advice online. (I?ve no doubt that Allan does take his experience offline.)
I can get a web consultant to handle the website stuff or I can do it myself. I don't care if my FA has a presence online or not, my FA is successful at advising individuals and companies how to expound, save and invest there business, safely and ethically.
I don't trust My FA to change the drive shaft on my Nissan (that I recently had done on my car) but I trust him, to take my ideas and business, forward.
If he wants to fly to Singapore and to do a weeks seminar if front of aload of high powered business people that's up to him. If he wants to have his own website or not, is not my problem.
If his advice didn't work I?d ditch him like the other internet gurus. I'd have to because for financial reasons
The gurus have a huge web presence but what did they do for me? How much success did I have after years of listening to them? Did they really want to help me or was I just another email address for them to promote their buddies latest meaningless marketing material, or push software and resources that I could do without?
i'm sorry if i sound bitter, and once again i don't mean to offend you robertb
P.S. Allan i'm not getting an email notification for replies to any of my posts? i always check the 'notify box' what am i doing wrong? am i being punished for my posts  (only joking) |
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AllanGardyne
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:34 am
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| mattie wrote: | | i'm not getting an email notification for replies to any of my posts? i always check the 'notify box' what am i doing wrong? am i being punished for my posts (only joking) |
Try this: Click on Profile, scroll down, make sure you have checked the box beside the words "Always notify me of replies".
If this doesn't solve the problem, the emails are probably being filtered out, perhaps by your ISP or by your email software.
Another option: You may have whitelist the moderator's email address, which is
wally AT AssociatePrograms.com
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dotdash
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:52 am
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| Quote: | | but don't you think dotdash that there'll always be those who slip the net so to speak? |
I do agree with you there, yes my comment was somewhat idealistic but indicative of the way things are going.
There will always be those who look for loopholes and seek to 'game the system' and their loopholes are always short lived until the next 'patch'. I think they make most of their money from selling their latest GRQ product teaching the *secrets* of their latest loophole discovery anyway.
It's because of people like that and the desperate 'how can I make $5000 in 2 days' people who follow them that companies like Google then have to (to quote Perry Marshall) "drop the hammer".
I know adwords has had a serious overhaul to try and combat all the junk adsense sites out there and it seems to have hurt many legitimate businesses as well as those who were targeted by the changes. I think it was name squeeze pages that got it in the neck, I may be wrong I don't use adwords or any other PPC at this stage.
In an ideal world it will one day be impossible for people to game the system for short term easy money, this way the honest business owners will not suffer as collaterol damage when the SE's and other big companies have to shake up their systems to weed out the low lives.
But yes, the black hats and GRQ people will always be there, I think life is getting harder and harder for them and to be perfectly honest - I don't mind having competition like that really 
I'll just keep tortoising 
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mattie
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:06 am
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I think that google (and the rest) have a business to run, and in the search for internet fortunes this fact is pushed aside.
Squeeze pages are the latest buzz, but like many other fads on the internet, unless utilized properly the effectiveness will wear thin very quickly.
But that's the problem with fads, they?re not utilized properly, they just become overrun by the stampede of desperate money makers (who often find the technique not as effective as first thought).
| Quote: | | I Think they make most of their money from selling their latest GRQ product teaching the *secrets* of their latest loophole discovery anyway. |
I just get this feeling that someone is more than willing to share a new technique for $147 just as the effectiveness of that the technique is coming to an end (it's just my conspiracy theory)
Does a squeeze page add value? No, not really? And google knows this. How long d'you think that?s going to last? And yet how many people are pushing it? How much squeeze page software is there? Loads, all totally useless, all you need is a decent auto responder.
Most sales pages have little value; they kind of tell you something without actually telling you anything. The same goes for the products that being promoted, for the most part.
I know Adsense followers have been hurt lately, so it's on to the next fad I guess. I just feel sorry for those??people who have based a majority of income on Adsense.
But I can't believe that they (I have nothing to do with Adsense, I call it madsense) couldn't see it coming?
I?m looking for steady growth, not a miracle cure. I can wait 2-3 years for organic growth, it doesn?t bother me. I don't care if only after a year I only have 1,000 visitors per month. Having invested alot of time and effort and money (like Adsense) only do have my income halved would bother me.
not only that but to rely on that income only to have it slashed in half because google changed their minds (yet again) must be crippling.
Google aren't idiots, they are there to provide a useful service. With a huge majority of people abusing the opportunity, what did they think was going to happen?
But will this stop? It will when less and less people choose these stupid routes. But there will always be desperate people.
I still say though it's not really the fault of the gurus, its people who buy that empower the gurus. We all need to be a little shrewder in our efforts, but I understand that being shrewd doesn't come naturally to most people.
When a famous guru sends an email saying "I?ve negotiated a deal that you get your first month free" but you know you get a month free anyway, do you then trust that guru? (You know who you are)
when one 'gurus' whose fortune starts to break up because his fad has stopped working, yet people are still promoting his fad, do you trust the 'guru' or the people who are even now still promoting his (now useless) fad? (You know who you are)
I think we could all be a little bit smarter in our decisions, but it's hard because we all want success, and that can often blind a rational decision!
The shame is that like you pointed out dotdash there are some genuine people, genuine helpers out there that get caught up with the rest of this rabble |
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AllanGardyne
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:51 am
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You recommend we ignore all the fads, but then what? What exactly do you recommend?
| mattie wrote: | | I?m looking for steady growth, not a miracle cure. I can wait 2-3 years for organic growth, it doesn?t bother me. I don't care if only after a year I only have 1,000 visitors per month. |
This seems a remarkably patient approach. How can you make it work? Do you have a plan to achieve a really high visitor value? Or a plan to make those 1,000 visitors a month snowball into something much larger?
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mattie
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Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:23 pm
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| Quote: | | You recommend we ignore all the fads, but then what? What exactly do you recommend? |
Show me one fad that is either;
1) Highly sustainable, for a long period of time e.g. until I retire, preferably!
2) After two years, is still as highly effective, and costs the same, as it was when it first hit the net?
I?m in for the long haul Allan, that?s what i'd recommend.
stop looking for a quick fix. Be realistic. Everybody wants more. that's what i'd recommend.
I don't want to be sweating buckets over my next affiliate cheque just because google is having a bit of a tizzy and 10 of my websites have dropped out of the search results, that's what I recommend. there are plenty of ways to get there, but as i see it .....most take time, effort and patience.
three qualities that i see very few promoting on the interent.
it's all;
make blah, blah ,blah in two months (or sometimes less).
'only spend 1-3 hours per week'.
'hurry'
'quick before...'
'only...left'
mind you, the reality would make for grim reading! at least these headlines make me laugh.
1,000 visitors (FOR EXAMPLE) for one website sure it would grow overtime. And that's with just one website in a niche. Why stick with one website in that niche? that's one method of expanding, but you already know that.
In the UK Allan, we've had all the political boom and bust from our governments. And while fads are working all is well, but they aren't sustainable, and enough people felt the full force of the last recession. Some people never learn!
A bit of PPC, slap up a squeeze page, capture a few emails and hope it's brings in money. WELL OF COURSE IT'S GONNA BRING IN MONEY, but it's highly unlikely to be a predicable amount and if you're using PPC and then decide it's not financially viable, then what?
I?ve seen friends spending thousands trying and convince people to buy their product or service or promoting there website. I?ve also seen most of them pull it right back off when the money ran out. and they had better contacts than i do! I don't want to be like them, and there are plenty of them.
How many affiliate programs do I see on various affiliate directories that one day are there the next day don't exist? Plenty.
just a small example
http://www.uk4profit.co.uk/discon.html
| Quote: | | This seems a remarkably patient approach. How can you make it work? Do you have a plan to achieve a really high visitor value? Or a plan to make those 1,000 visitors a month snowball into something much larger? |
'Patient' and cost effective! I?m done with wasting my money!
Of course you could take measures to help it snowball, but I?m looking for controlled growth, by using some good old fashioned techniques mixed with a few crazy ideas of my own.
I?m trying to be a bit more savvy than, 'I?ve made a bit of money.....oh, I?ll 'ave a go at that and see what 'appens. I?ve 'eard that it'll bring me in more traffic!'
I?ll let the next man look for the 'magic pill' and I guarantee that he'll be back on this forum, either asking for another way or moaning that he's not getting enough visitors or sales.
Joint ventures? I don't see them as a fad; forums have been around for years. Good old fashion content is still a big reason for repeat visitors. Building an email list.
| Quote: | | This seems a remarkably patient approach. How can you make it work? |
I?ll make it work because I refused to fall for all the rubbish that gurus push on me. There advice didn't work, when i most needed it to.
I?ll make it work because, like everyone else, I have few big ideas, but I?m building up slowly. testing first.
I?ll make it work because I won't be the one emailing you asking; how can I get more traffic? What do you recommend I do now? Why isn?t it working? (I?m assuming you receive emails like that)
not that your advice isn't any good, i just don't want to be a moaner.
I?ll make it work because after more than two years of seeing nothing for my effort or expecting too much, I?m listening to someone that is willing to help me.
He?s no not trying to push meaningless products on me. he's there for me, on the phone when I want to talk, and his advice is working and although I?ve got a far way to go to my first Ferrari ( F50 please! ), I?m finally seeing results.
It?s not | Quote: | | How can you make it work? |
because it's already working.
Those 1,000 visitors was just an example, but i'd still be happy with 1,000. at least it's better than the results i used to have.
I can do alot with 1,000 visitors! |
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mattie
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:30 am
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| Quote: | Show me one fad that is either;
1) Highly sustainable, for a long period of time e.g. until I retire, preferably!
2) After two years, is still as highly effective, and costs the same, as it was when it first hit the net? |
no reply yet?? |
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AllanGardyne
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:06 pm
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| mattie wrote: | | no reply yet?? |
I thought it was a rhetorical question.
Being in business for the long haul makes sense to me.
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mattie
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Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:07 pm
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when I see that you've responded I always feel like I?m in trouble, like I?m gonna get told off.
Allan I hope you understood me when I said I trust you, but I just don't trust some of the people you recommend.
Thank you for spending time with me on this forum discussion, it means alot to me. I know you?re a busy/popular person.
I know I?ve been a little bit cheeky in my responses. 
maybe I?m right, maybe I?m wrong, maybe I need to be a bit more humble, and less sceptical but like many who struggle it ahs been a very hard slog.
My FA has opened my eyes to some good ideas (exact details I want to keep under wraps for now) and I?ve finally started to see the fruits of my labours.
I don't think I?m in a position to tell anyone 'how' to make money, but I?ve had years of experience of what not to do, and that can be important aswell.
Every time I have a set back, I ask myself, what have I learned? And what I often learn is another route NOT to take.
Thanks once again for your responses, I feel very privileged and overwhelmed.
mattie
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