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Sean Burns
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:18 pm
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Hi all
On page factors can be important. Things like the title tag and heading tags can get you up a few spots ahead of sites with a higher PR that don't use them - sometimes.
The main issue, in regards to Google especially, is that on page factors are finite. You can only get a 100% match for the title and your H1 tag. The off page factors are infinite. So, every time you get a link from a high PR site with the correct anchor text, your rankings will improve. Eventually, it gets to the point where nothing else matters.
This is most obvious when you look at highly competitive keywords like Travel. The top 10 on Google is 100% influenced by off page factors. Another example is searching Google for webmasters - last time I looked, four of the top 10 didn't mention that word anywhere on the page. As Charlie said, it's like the Google bombing technique but in a good way.
Because PageRank is a logarithmic calculation, there isn't much difference between low PR sites. The difference between a two and a three can be covered by on page factors. Once you get to fives and sixes, the difference is huge and the page with the most PR/anchor text benefits will always win (unless of course, neither of them have links pointing to them with the right anchor text - then on page factors can make the difference).
Things like keyword density have become less important because, when you think about it, the number of times a word appears on a page has absolutely no influence on how highly you value the page (as a visitor). Google has tried to get away from a mathematical algorithm to an extent and try to judge pages the same way that a person would. So, the title is important and the headings are important. What is also important is whether other people think the page is good (by linking to it) and what they think it's about (anchor text).
It's worked quite well so far but it will continue to get more difficult for them which is why they are working on artificial intelligence to try to keep improving.
| Quote: | | But surely if on-page factors decline further in importance, eventually there will be no need to penalise extreme cases, as they won't make any difference to the rankings anyway. |
That's a great point. You'll notice with many techniques that are borderline spam, the examples of success are never for competitive keywords (form a SEO standpoint, not searches). This is because you cannot do anything on a page to get it to rank higher than it's PR and anchor text will allow.
Google have always said that they want to handle spam algorithmically - it tends to work most of the time.
Cheers
Sean Burns |
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Debs
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:08 pm
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Charlie & Sean, excellent points. I didn't put the 2 and 2 together that Charlie obviously did regarding overuse and it wouldn't matter. Gave me more to think about, both of you. Thanks.
Debs
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Charlie
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:25 pm
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Hello again Sean.
Thanks for the excellent post. 
This thread is straightening out a few concepts in my mind, if no one else's! You seem to have a good knack of actually making things sound like they are not only believable, but pretty obvious, too.
Many people have trouble doing this in the SEO area.
| Sean Burns wrote: | | The main issue, in regards to Google especially, is that on page factors are finite. You can only get a 100% match for the title and your H1 tag. The off page factors are infinite. So, every time you get a link from a high PR site with the correct anchor text, your rankings will improve. Eventually, it gets to the point where nothing else matters. |
Put this way, it seems as though people need to get away from the idea of on-page and off-page factors competing for precedence. Point taken.
| Sean Burns wrote: | | Because PageRank is a logarithmic calculation, there isn't much difference between low PR sites. The difference between a two and a three can be covered by on page factors. Once you get to fives and sixes, the difference is huge and the page with the most PR/anchor text benefits will always win (unless of course, neither of them have links pointing to them with the right anchor text - then on page factors can make the difference). |
Sorry my Maths is a bit rusty...
Just to pound it into my skull, when you say "logarithmic", is that the same as exponential - the curve gets steeper, the higher the PR?
| Sean Burns wrote: | | Google has tried to get away from a mathematical algorithm to an extent and try to judge pages the same way that a person would. So, the title is important and the headings are important. What is also important is whether other people think the page is good (by linking to it) and what they think it's about (anchor text). |
Are you saying that if we get enough (properly anchored) incoming links, and optimise the title and headings for SEO, the main text can be written (more in a direct marketing style) just for the benefit of human visitors?
Secondly, what's your view when it comes to incoming links (with Google)?
I have over two hundred small sites, but many of these share an IP. Would I gain much from well anchored links from sites on a different topic? Does the IP matter? For example 100 links from domains with the same IP to another domain on the same or different IP?
With a couple of exceptions, these sites have very low PR.
You read all this stuff about the need to forge DNS and spread IPs to avoid detection. Do you think it's worth it?
| Sean Burns wrote: | | It's worked quite well so far but it will continue to get more difficult for them which is why they are working on artificial intelligence to try to keep improving. |
Are you saying Google is starting to work on the semantics - what a page actually means, rather than just pattern matching text?
Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I'd very much appreciate your views.
Thanks,
Charlie.
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Debs
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:33 pm
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| Quote: | | Are you saying Google is starting to work on the semantics - what a page actually means, rather than just pattern matching text? |
Charlie, here is an article on Google's purchase of Applied Semantics, well worth reading.
http://www.google.com/press/pressrel/applied.html
from the above article:
"Applied Semantics is a proven innovator in semantic text processing and online advertising," said Sergey Brin, Google's co-founder and president of Technology."
Sean's comment is no surprise considering Google now has the technology (if they didn't already have it in some form before). Currently, I believe Google is using this technology for context target matching with the Adsense program. With Adsense, what happens over time is the ads become more and more relevant to the content of the page, not just the keywords used, page name, or title. Having this application in terms of actual search results would be interesting. Entire content would then be the theme, not just certain "spots" on a page. Would be great if it required content that actually made sense. lol
Debs
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Sean Burns
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Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:51 pm
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Hi Charlie
| Quote: | Sorry my Maths is a bit rusty...
Just to pound it into my skull, when you say "logarithmic", is that the same as exponential - the curve gets steeper, the higher the PR? |
My maths is a bit rusty as well but I think the real PR works like this.
PR of 1 = 4
PR of 2 = 16 (4x4)
PR of 3 = 64 (4x4x4)
PR of 4 = 256 (4x4x4x4)
PR of 5 = 1024 (4x4x4x4x4)
PR of 6 = 4096 (4x4x4x4x4x4)
PR of 7 = 16384 (4x4x4x4x4x4x4)
PR of 8 = 65536 (4x4x4x4x4x4x4x4)
PR of 9 = 262144 (4x4x4x4x4x4x4x4x4)
PR of 10 = 1048576 (4x4x4x4x4x4x4x4x4x4)
Not sure if that's quite right but it shows how the PR differences become much larger when you get to about 5.
| Quote: | | Are you saying that if we get enough (properly anchored) incoming links, and optimise the title and headings for SEO, the main text can be written (more in a direct marketing style) just for the benefit of human visitors? |
That's pretty much correct. It really depends on how much PR your site has and how many pages it has. If you get your PR high enough, you don't really need to worry about on page optimizing - you just use the anchor text of internal links to do the job.
| Quote: | | I have over two hundred small sites, but many of these share an IP. Would I gain much from well anchored links from sites on a different topic? Does the IP matter? For example 100 links from domains with the same IP to another domain on the same or different IP? |
In terms of PR, IP addresses don't matter. The problem is that you could trigger a manual inspection if you cross link that many sites. If your sites are all full of great content, it won't matter. If they aren't, you could get all your sites banned. Take Internet.com as an example. They are the kings of cross linking but it's OK because they are all good sites.
| Quote: | | You read all this stuff about the need to forge DNS and spread IPs to avoid detection. Do you think it's worth it? |
Not really. Google will ban based on ownership if they want to. You can use all different IP addresses but if you give them a reason to investigate, they'll investigate everything. Different IP addresses may help you to avoid getting investigated but you'd probably be better off just not doing it if it's going to cause problems.
Hi Debs
Great post about Applied Semantics (I couldn't remember their name before). I'm not really supposed to post details about AdSense so all I can say is that I will make a heck of a lot more this month than I did two months ago. Traffic has increased a bit but it's mainly because they are serving better ads. In my experience, the info you posted is 100% correct.
Cheers
Sean Burns |
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Charlie
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:29 am
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I must have a crystal ball...
(Hope that didn't lose anything in translation!  )
Thanks for that.
The page is down at the moment, but I'll grab it later.
Thanks for getting back, Sean...
| Sean wrote: | | Google will ban based on ownership if they want to. You can use all different IP addresses but if you give them a reason to investigate, they'll investigate everything. Different IP addresses may help you to avoid getting investigated but you'd probably be better off just not doing it if it's going to cause problems. |
I know of some people who advocate forging DNS ownership records (and various other things) to thoroughly disguise all trace of shared ownership. Some people even pretend they are joint venturing with themselves, simply to add credence to their keen cross-linking.
There are more than a few "cheeky tricks" going on in this area, from what I hear.
Cheers,
Charlie.
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Larry Chamberlain
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:33 pm
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Hi All,
And yet another thread with bucket loads of great useable information. I take my hat off to you all, but especially to Sean Burns, (and I don't think anyone's gonna disagree with that.)
This forum does not encourage self promotion, it's one of the things that make it the excellent forum that it is, but I notice that Sean does not even have a sig file.
Many of you will know that Sean is the author of "Rankings Reveled", an ebook which has to be the routemap for high rankings on King Google. If you didn't know that, well you know now.
I found, and I'm still finding valuable information in Rankings Reveled, some of you of course that are more advance than I, will already know a portion of the stuff in there, but if you only glean one new thing, and likely it will be a heck of a lot more than that, then...
The book is well written and "techie" concepts are made easy to understand, even for a numbnuts like me, just like Sean's posts.
Well, if Sean has too much integrity to post the URL, I will (at the risk of a clip round the ear from Wally )
http://www.webmastersreference.com/rankings_revealed/
All the best,
Larry Chamberlain.
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Debs
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:55 pm
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Yes, Larry, I knew that already and find Sean's posts very informative. I did wonder about the no sig so I did a little investigating Even wondered if he was a Google employee who found a home here at AP
As an interesting note on SE rankings, I got this in a newsletter today and would appreciate comments from all.
| Quote: |
New Search Engine Ranking Algorithm - An Interview with
ExactSeek.com's Mel Strocen
By Shelley Lowery
ExactSeek.com has teamed up with Alexa to provide a brand
new search engine ranking algorithm that ranks sites based
on content relevancy and Alexa user popularity data.
This unique ranking system not only provides relevant search
results, but it also enables website owners to increase
their site's ranking in ExactSeek simply by increasing their
Alexa ranking.
ExactSeek.com, a Jayde Online company, is a search engine
and directory that indexes over 25,000 websites each day.
It currently indexes over 2 million websites and is
expected to exceed 5 million by the end of the year.
Alexa Internet, an Amazon.com company, provides the Alexa
Toolbar -- an invaluable tool for the Internet marketer.
This little browser plug-in provides a wealth of
information, including site statistics, traffic data and
contact information for every site you visit. Best of all,
it won't cost you a dime.
You can download and install the Alexa toolbar here:
http://download.alexa.com/
I recently had the opportunity to interview Jayde Online's
CEO, Mel Strocen. The Jayde Online Network includes
ExactSeek.com, GoArticles.com, SiteProNews.com,
AllBusinessNews.com, EzineHub.com and FreeWebSubmission.com.
Jayde Online Inc. has been internet-focused from its
inception in 1998 and primarily involved in the publication
of email newsletters and the development of niche and
general search engines.
Here's what Mel had to say about the new ExactSeek search
engine ranking algorithm...
Shelley: Mel, thank you for taking time out of your busy
schedule to talk with me.
Mel: Shelley, I appreciate the opportunity to provide some
insight on recent developments at ExactSeek and our new site
ranking algorithm.
Shelley: Now that ExactSeek has teamed up with Alexa, how
exactly will websites be ranked?
Mel: The main factors in determining website ranking will
be page content relevancy and the site traffic data provided
by Alexa Internet with the emphasis being on the former
versus the latter. It will be several weeks, or possibly
even longer, before we finalize the exact weight we give
Alexa data. What this means is that for the short term
webmasters might find their website ranking changing fairly
frequently. Think of it as ExactSeek's version of the
"Google Dance"
Shelley: Prior to the new partnership, ExactSeek ranked
sites according to keywords displayed within the Title, Meta
Description and Meta Keywords tags. Will these tags still
play a role in ranking a website? Or, will sites be strictly
ranked according to content and their Alexa ranking?
Mel: Yes, Title and Meta tags will continue to play a role,
but not to the extent they did previously. The information
from these tags will be shown in the actual search result
listings and will also be compared to page content as an
additional check of overall relevancy.
Shelley: As I'm sure you're aware, some "experts" may make a
case that Alexa rankings can be manipulated. How would you
respond to this analysis?
Mel: As mentioned, Alexa traffic data will be an integral
part of the ExactSeek ranking algorithm but not the dominant
factor, that being page content. Essentially, we've opted to
emphasize user popularity over link popularity. Either one
can be manipulated by savvy webmasters or SEO experts but,
in our view, user popularity is less subject to manipulation
over the long term because it is more difficult to
manipulate the surfing public than it is to manipulate SE
crawlers. The bottom line is that people will always be able
to better evaluate content than search engine spiders.
Shelley: Will an increase in traffic from other sources
affect how a site ranks in ExactSeek?
Mel: Yes, the good news for webmasters is that regardless of
what they do to promote their websites, their efforts will
result in a better ranking on ExactSeek. So, increased
traffic from any source, be it ezine advertising, PPC
campaigns, search engine marketing, etc., will help boost
site ranking in our search engine.
With other search engines, webmasters have been forced to
learn what is important to each engine and tailor their
sites accordingly. The beauty of ExactSeek is that
webmasters can focus on making their sites relevant to
people, not our search engine.
Shelley: How does ExactSeek's new ranking algorithm compare
with other search engines?
Mel: With the exception of Google, the major search engines
have offered little in the way of innovation. Factoring user
popularity into a ranking algorithm is ground-breaking. User
popularity is a far more reliable indicator of where
websites should rank and gives the surfing public some input
on the search results they see.
Shelley: How will this new ranking system benefit website
owners?
Mel: I've already mentioned the most obvious ways that
webmasters will benefit as a result of our use of Alexa
traffic stats. Indirectly, they will also benefit as
searchers recognize the importance of user popularity in
delivering quality search results. More search traffic for
us will translate into more traffic for webmasters who have
listed their websites in ExactSeek. In addition, we will be
introducing other ranking factors specifically geared to
webmasters which will give them an opportunity to boost site
ranking in some very unique ways never before employed by
any search engine.
Shelley: Is ExactSeek.com the only search engine that will
be utilizing this new ranking system?
Mel: No, the new ranking system will be implemented on 6
search engines, those being ExactSeek, Aesop.com,
OnSeek.com, SitesOnDisplay.com, MaxPromo.com and Best-
SearchEngine.com. Four of these are using the new ranking
algorithm now and the remaining two will be within a week or
two.
Shelley: What are your submission policies? Should a
webmaster submit just their main page or can they submit
additional pages? How often should they submit and how?
Mel: We prefer that webmasters submit primary URLs, but
additional pages can be submitted if they have unique
content and title and meta tags that reflect that unique
content. Once a URL has been incorporated into the ExactSeek
database, follow-up submissions are unnecessary. All URLs in
our database are recrawled monthly. We also provide
webmasters the option of scheduling their own recrawls with
our recrawl tool (http://www.exactseek.com/srank.html).
Using this tool, a webmaster can have sites recrawled on a
weekly basis.
Site submissions to ExactSeek can be made at:
http://www.exactseek.com/add.html
Shelley: It's been a pleasure talking with you, Mel. Thank
you for allowing me to interview you.
Mel: My pleasure, Shelley. Thank you.
Since Alexa site rankings will play a major role in
determining how well your site ranks in ExactSeek, I highly
recommend that you download the Alexa toolbar -- not only to
track your site's status, but also to locate quality sites
for joint ventures and link partners. It's a win-win
proposition no matter how you look at it.
Copyright ? Shelley Lowery 2003.
About the Author:
Shelley Lowery is the author of Web Design Mastery - An in-
depth guide to professional web design. And, Ebook Starter -
Do-it-yourself ebook design kit. Visit Web-Source.net to
sign up for a free subscription to Etips and receive a free
copy of the highly acclaimed ebook, Killer Internet
Marketing Strategies. http://www.web-source.net
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Debs
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Learn how to turn keyphrases into quality, well-targeted articles your visitors and SE's will love with Gary Antosh's new ebook "Web Content Made Easy!" |
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Larry Chamberlain
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:02 pm
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Hi Debs,
| Quote: |
Shelley: Will an increase in traffic from other sources
affect how a site ranks in ExactSeek?
Mel: Yes, the good news for webmasters is that regardless of
what they do to promote their websites, their efforts will
result in a better ranking on ExactSeek. So, increased
traffic from any source, be it ezine advertising, PPC
campaigns, search engine marketing, etc., will help boost
site ranking in our search engine.
|
So presumably 20,000 hits a week from an autosurf startpage exchange could bump you to No.1 ?
By the way Debs, what happened to your sig?
All the best,
Larry Chamberlain.
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Debs
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NY
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:58 pm
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Haven't used it for a while Larry, mainly I use it now when I refer someone to check something on my site like the css file, or how to attach external css or js files.
Debs
_________________
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Bob_A
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:24 pm
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| Debs wrote: | Not tricks, Niz, just sound SEO practices that also help your visitors.
heading tags <h1> one per page, as you noted above, as close to the body tag as you can get without messing up your design. Ideal if it matches your meta title.
<h2> to reinforce your theme, use for subcategories within the same page or as a subtitle to your <h1>, <h2> can be used more than once per page,
<h3> also good for subcategories or subtitles, can be used more than once per page.
Use your primary keyword(s) for that page, in a meaningful phrase, once in bold, once in italic. SE's love this too.
"you should end your pages with your keywords/phrases appearing last in the html" preferably the same as your meta title or meta description. The reason is the prominence Google, and other engines, may give to your keyphrases toward the bottom of the page. Doesn't have to be absolutely last, just close to the end before you hit the </html>.
"Move all your javascript to an external file so that your content gets more prominence" Same with using external style sheets. Should be said that the javascript referred is that which sits in the <head> section of your page.
How do these help your visitors?
With the heading tags <h1> <h2> <h3> etc. bold & italic, you are giving your viewers the top points within that page. When people read newspapers they read titles and the first paragraph, then decide whether to read the whole article. Online, they read titles, and subtitles, bold and italic text, then decide if they want to read the whole page. Use these features to help your viewers find what they want, not just to get improved rankings and you will thrive in both.
Ending your page with the themed keyphrases, in a manner which makes sense to your visitors, reinforces to them where they are on your site, so they don't feel lost after reading your article.
To help your visitors in navigation, as well as SE considerations, anchor links using keyphrases are a good way to go. There are many mentions on this forum of using the keyphrase in your link for the page you are directing your visitors to in order to help with SE positioning. But it also helps your visitors. It gives them a good idea, when done properly, of what they will find on that page, should they click that link.
Moving <head> css and javascript to external files and linking to them in the head section reduces the size of the page. Using css in place of font tags, tables, table formatting, with an external style sheet, greatly reduces page size and loading time. Visitors love fast loading pages ... time is literally money when it comes to page load times.
Personally I think SE's seem to be going toward a "help your visitors, help your rankings" but maybe it's just coincidental that these features cover both visitor satisfaction and SE practices.
Hope this helps,
Debs |
Hi Deb,
Quick question:
If my Specific keyword is widget and I put that in a H1 Tag, is it OK to put other keywords that I am also using like red widgets etc. in an H2 or H3 Tag. Is that a good SE practice?
Thanks
Bob |
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Debs
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:48 pm
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Yes, Bob, and it also helps your visitors when they scan the page.
Debs
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Charlie
Joined:
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:58 pm
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| Debs wrote: | | Yes, Bob, and it also helps your visitors when they scan the page. |
As we discussed in another thread, the only on-page factors that Google is really giving much weight to these days, are the very ones that help searchers to read the page... titles and headlines, for example.
All in all, I think this is a good trend, if only for the quality of search results.
Cheers,
Charlie.
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Debs
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Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:01 pm
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But also mentioned previously, certain things can help your visitors, and Google isn't the only SE out there so it certainly doesn't hurt to provide a good structural outline of your site by any means.
Debs
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Charlie
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:28 am
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You might like to take a look at the following thread...
Optimising for anyone other than Google...
Cheers,
Charlie.
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