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Charlie
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:33 pm
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| Phil Tanny wrote: | | I'm not completing following your thread here, unless you are saying that more exciting home page copy might boost my conversions. If that's what you mean, then yes, point is taken, I certainly do have um, philosophical type obstacles in that arena. |
All I was trying to say was that marketing is a moral compromise for all but the most money-oriented among us.
| Quote: | | Please recall that my goal with this site is to build partnerships with intelligent quality publishers, ie. those that will still be here in a decade. |
The best way to help make sure they're around for a decade (and still talking to you) might be to help them get what they want. This will involve making money, how ever they choose to do it.
Look, a part of me is much how you seem here. "I love marketing, but I hate marketers." Let me clarify, before another few bridges go up...
"I love marketers, but I hate the tactics some marketers use."
Don't get too judgmental, or you'll run out of partners altogether.
| Quote: | | Surely any copy can always be better, but my bottom line honest attitude is that if folks don't get or want what my home page describes, they don't get or want it. |
I like to think that the best approach is to sell people what they are already looking for. The trouble is, sometimes they need a little reminder as to what that is.
| Quote: | | I don't have precise data on how my home page is converting (I should, one more thing to do and learn) but there's no doubt that most who arrive leave without joining. |
Sounds like a job for your old mate Tim Warnock.
| Quote: | | I've put a paragraph at the bottom of the page, begging folks to tell me why they didnt' find what they're looking for. Perhaps that will help me see what's going on. |
Try bribery again, if begging isn't working.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | If this is what you really want, why are you so cold on the viral marketing approach? |
Because even if it works, I don't get that much. I like the idea in theory, but in practise all my experience tells me it will be a lot of work for little return. |
If you are trying to build a list, the reward can be well worth it. I don't think you need anything like 20,000 (as you mentioned), if they are spenders rather than freebie collectors.
Hope this keeps you buzzing,
Charlie.
P.S. | Quote: | | Oh my, I'm getting embarrassed to have a whole thread about me and my site. |
That reminds me of a dream I had the another night - involving Allan...
[ No, not that sort of dream. I like him, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Besides, he's married.  ]
In the dream, he told me he was thirty five(!) and I said I was thinking of starting a "private conversations" marketing forum...
Looks like half of this has proved true already.  
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Phil Tanny
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:07 pm
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I enjoy our conversations Charlie, no walls are going up here, feel free to opine whatever's on your mind, that's what I do. I just burp it up, and type it right out. 
| Charlie wrote: | | All I was trying to say was that marketing is a moral compromise for all but the most money-oriented among us. |
Why? I think this is only true if we define marketing and selling as being _only_ the in your face tactics we've discussed elsewhere.
Actually, I have nothing whatsoever against marketing and selling. I've been doing it for 25 years, as a self employed person I have to.
The biggest sale I ever closed involved no persuasion whatsoever. None. Any level of persuasion would have been counter productive. Selling can be (not in theory, in 25 years of experience) simply asking the prospect what they want to know, and then giving that to them in the most efficient manner possible. Period. With a smile of course.
The "secret" to this method of selling is insanely simple, that's why so many on the Net don't get it, because we have a big bias for complicated schemes on the Net.
Give the buyer the experience you yourself like to have when you are the buyer.
The BIG BIG problem with this method for so many of us is that it doesn't deliver the seller the experience of being the savvy clever operator pulling all the strings. That experience is all important to many sellers, and that's why they run from this mode of selling.
Oh my, you've hit the Prof Blowhard button again!
| Quote: | | Don't get too judgmental, or you'll run out of partners altogether. |
I hear this one. My opinions on selling haven't changed a bit, and I doubt they ever will, as I have too much experience informing them. But the way I present these opinions can indeed be improved significantly, and I'm already working hard on this, especially in conversations with real copywriters.
But the attitude is easily understood if you just picture me standing in front of you in person, talking to you the way so many Net marketers talk to us in print.
How long would it take before Charlie the truck driver bopped me a good one on the nose?
I think we connect because, as a retired remodeler guy, I come out of the same blue collar common sense universe that perhaps you've inhabited. I love that world for it's ability to see right through BS without the burden of so much pseudo sophistication.
Anyway, all your points are taken. In your opinion, do they apply to my current project?
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Charlie
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:04 pm
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| Phil Tanny wrote: | | I just burp it up, and type it right out. |
Is there any other way?
| Quote: | | The "secret" to this method of selling is insanely simple, that's why so many on the Net don't get it, because we have a big bias for complicated schemes on the Net. |
I don't think viral marketing need be complicated, however biased I am. It helps if you are imaginative, but complex often works against us.
Either way, you need a general proposal before you start talking to people one on one.
| Quote: | | Give the buyer the experience you yourself like to have when you are the buyer. |
I'm not sure this works for all of us. I like to justify it all by "who wants to be normal?", but it's a numbers game. Writing for the "average" customer, springs to mind.
| Quote: | | The BIG BIG problem with this method for so many of us is that it doesn't deliver the seller the experience of being the savvy clever operator pulling all the strings. |
Help them buy, you mean? I certainly hate being sold...
Paul Myers recently said "a benefit is in the head or heart - everything else is a feature" (and I understand what he's saying), but I still maintain benefits are for people with no imagination...
Show me a list of features and let me decide what are the benefits to me. I'll do a much better job of selling myself than any salesman ever will, so why do they all try and interfere.
Yet we're led to believe that everyone is too stupid to think for themselves. I prefer to think they can if they're encouraged.
| Quote: | | Oh my, you've hit the Prof Blowhard button again! |
For anyone who has installed the toolbar, it's the big red one on the right, marked "HOT".
| Quote: | | My opinions on selling haven't changed a bit, and I doubt they ever will, as I have too much experience informing them. |
Don't say that, or I'll stop now...
| Quote: | | But the way I present these opinions can indeed be improved significantly, and I'm already working hard on this, especially in conversations with real copywriters. |
Funny you should say that, since I was recently "agreeing to disagree" with someone who doesn't like to debate anywhere near as much as we do. I quoted my longtime friend and mentor, Des Carter...
"Disagreement is the natural father of progress, in many cases... whatever the mother may pretend."
| Quote: | | How long would it take before Charlie the truck driver bopped me a good one on the nose? |
[ Unlike a poor salesman (apparently), you can't beat a good stereotype! ]
I like to nip things in the bud face to face. Do a weak impression of a Paul Myers-style word game with them and see who runs away first.
| Quote: | | I come out of the same blue collar common sense universe that perhaps you've inhabited. |
The universe I leapt into and climbed back out of doesn't sound quite like yours, but I see where you are coming from...
| Quote: | | I love that world for it's ability to see right through BS without the burden of so much pseudo sophistication. |
I think we need to remember one man's "pseudo sophistication" is another man's patronisation. Relative sophistication anyone? Just ask any remodeler or lorry driver.
| Quote: | | Anyway, all your points are taken. In your opinion, do they apply to my current project? |
Oh, Prof, you do ask your understudies such difficult questions! (Just a minute while I check what this thread was supposed to be about...)
Oh yes...
I think they do, but we'll both end up spending the best part of another day making sure, if we're not careful.
Simply put, I reckon you are best off coming up with an imaginative twist on a viral marketing concept that has proven to work time and time again, since that is a form most of your potential referrers will be familiar with and happy to use.
Once you have your list, you can use the Phil's home brew approach to your heart's content. Let's face it, that's what having a business is all about for people like us.
Cheers,
Charlie.
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Phil Tanny
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:57 pm
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| Charlie wrote: | | Show me a list of features and let me decide what are the benefits to me. I'll do a much better job of selling myself than any salesman ever will, so why do they all try and interfere.! |
Yes, that's a question that I like to bloviate on, why is sales so often defined as interfering with what the customer came to do, sell themselves?
In my not so humble opinion, it's because many sellers have a compelling need to feel that they, the seller, are the crucial irreplaceable component that makes the transaction happen.
This is a natural and normal human need to feel that one is valuable and useful. I don't object to that, because I'm entirely the same way.
The problem arises when one's need to be valuable starts damaging the business environment for everyone else.
Picture a swimming pool in your backyard. The water in the pool represents the level of trust people have in what they read on the Internet.
Every time one of us writes a page that is full of exaggarations, deliberate and clever bending of the normal definitions of words, blatant attempts at manipulation etc, you can scoop a handful of water out of the pool.
Day by day, drip by drip, the pool gets lower.
Now when that reader comes to your page, their default assumption is that there may very well be some BS involved. You have to work harder, you earn less money. Somebody else's psychological agenda is now pulling money out of your bank account.
If one sees this clearly, it's a challenge indeed not to be ornery and moralistic, a challenge I've proven I'm not up to. 
Regrettably, there is no off button on the Blowhard toolbar, at least when it comes to this topic.
| Quote: | | Unlike a poor salesman (apparently), you can't beat a good stereotype! |
I hope you understood that I'm proudly including myself within that stereotype.
| Quote: | | I like to nip things in the bud face to face |
Right, there you go, that's a good example.
| Quote: | | The universe I leapt into and climbed back out of doesn't sound quite like yours, but I see where you are coming from... |
This is a really old reference, but back in the 60's there was a popular author, Eric Hoffer, who worked as a longshoreman on the docks in LA during the day, and wrote philosophy books in his spare time. President Lyndon Johnson used to quote him.
I relate to guys like that.
A favorite movie character is "Kicking Bird" the Graham Greene character in Dances With Wolves. His character was a gentle thoughtful holy man, a husband, a warrior, a full human being.
| Quote: | | (Just a minute while I check what this thread was supposed to be about...) |
LOL! Yea, I could use a reminder too!
| Quote: | | Simply put, I reckon you are best off coming up with an imaginative twist on a viral marketing concept that has proven to work time and time again, since that is a form most of your potential referrers will be familiar with and happy to use. |
OK, here's some hard data to work with. Allan, bless his soul, just gave me ANOTHER kind mention in his newsletter. He directed people to this thread, which is mildly terrifying.
I would ballpark the results at around 30 new members, which I'm very grateful for (truly I am!), and I'm sure my members are as well, as they are the chief beneficiaries.
I'm not being cynical, despondant, moody or anything like that when I ask, how hard would you work for the opportunity to provide a free service to 30 people?
Remember, I'd have to put on a real song and dance to get to the top of Allan's attention if we hadn't known each other for years.
Thanks for the thread Charlie, whatever the heck it's about!
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Charlie
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:44 pm
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Hello Phil.
I'll keep this brief, in case you work Saturdays...
| Phil Tanny wrote: | | In my not so humble opinion, it's because many sellers have a compelling need to feel that they, the seller, are the crucial irreplaceable component that makes the transaction happen. |
In reality they are often the biggest objection the buyer needs to overcome - at least the ones I come across.
| Quote: | | This is a natural and normal human need to feel that one is valuable and useful. I don't object to that, because I'm entirely the same way. |
I suspect it's more a relection of insecurity manifesting itself as an attempt to control not just the outcome, but how it's arrived at. Surely, the salesman could feel valuable by just seeing how effectively he'd let the buyer sell himself. Power without effort, would appeal to me even more than control, I think.
| Quote: | | Picture a swimming pool in your backyard. The water in the pool represents the level of trust people have in what they read on the Internet. |
I love these sort of games...
Does the ice on the top represent how thick their skins are?
| Quote: | | Day by day, drip by drip, the pool gets lower. |
"Bloviate"? There goes another handful.
| Quote: | | Now when that reader comes to your page, their default assumption is that there may very well be some BS involved. |
I thought it was just me (in assuming that)...
I once read about a businessman who had a rather interesting way of focusing the minds of calling salemen (who had appointments with him). When they seated themselves in his office, he would start a big stopwatch (standing on his desk and preset to two minutes, or whatever). I loved this approach...
Ever since I saw that film - I hope it was a film - with Goldie Hawn wearing just a fireman's tunic and helmet and ringing a bell, I used to dream - this was definitely a dream - about combining the two scenarios...
Don't worry, I'll explain myself...
I always envisaged myself as a (conventionally dressed) businessman "humouring" visiting salesman, but instead of Goldie's bell to ring, I had to put up with my own BS Bell...
Basically, everytime the salesman offended I would ring it (with a smile, of course). I have a feeling this would focus minds, too.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Unlike a poor salesman (apparently), you can't beat a good stereotype! |
I hope you understood that I'm proudly including myself within that stereotype. |
I'm not 100% sure you'd have made it as a truck driver Phil. By the way, you never did tell me what a remodeler is.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I like to nip things in the bud face to face |
Right, there you go, that's a good example. |
You really should give Paul Myers more of a chance. I think you'd get on well. 
| Quote: | This is a really old reference, but back in the 60's there was a popular author, Eric Hoffer, who worked as a longshoreman on the docks in LA during the day, and wrote philosophy books in his spare time. President Lyndon Johnson used to quote him.
I relate to guys like that. |
Sounds like you'd get on well with Des Carter, too. There's a lot to be said for jobs that allow you time to think. Shame more of them aren't like that.
| Quote: | | OK, here's some hard data to work with. Allan, bless his soul, just gave me ANOTHER kind mention in his newsletter. He directed people to this thread, which is mildly terrifying. |
Oh, you're too modest. Besides, this'll teach them not to read Allan's newsletter straight away. It really does pay to read it as soon as it lands in your inbox, folks...
| Quote: | | I'm not being cynical, despondant, moody or anything like that when I ask, how hard would you work for the opportunity to provide a free service to 30 people? |
It would depend entirely upon who they were, how much I liked them, what I planned to do next and how much I thought I could get away with over time.
Cheers,
Charlie.
P.S. | Quote: | | Thanks for the thread Charlie, whatever the heck it's about! |
Et tu, Brute?
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AllanGardyne
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Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:05 pm
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| Phil Tanny wrote: | | ...how hard would you work for the opportunity to provide a free service to 30 people? |
If I really believed in it and I thought those 30 people were likely to tell other people about it, I'd work darn hard at it. I'd regard every single new subscriber as a major victory because I'd know that eventually I'd reach a tipping point where the project would start to snowball wonderfully, where succeess would breed more success.
(I hope you're encouraging all your subscribers to tell their friends or their newsletters readers about your free service. Explain that for the thing to work and for them to benefit, they need to do that.)
It reminds me of my first website, built in April, 1996. I was putting in endless hours and often selling only about one ebook a month. I kept trying different things. I must have made thousands of different mistakes on the way to the odd good lightbulb moment. That experience eventually led to a full-time business which employs people in three countries.
Here's something to consider...
The essence of your site is reciprocal linking. Therefore, wouldn't it make sense to link to a few hundred articles on linking methods etc, and get those sites to link back to you? Then your site could be a living, breathing example of the power of reciprocal linking.
Better still, you could also use the search engines effectively by adding hundreds of useful articles to your site.
Here's one way you could start getting those articles. You could approach all your major "competitors" and tell them you think your site is complementary. You could invite them to write a keyword-rich article describing their service and publish it on your site. In return, they would link back to your site or, even better but not absolutely necessary, publish your article on their site. It would be a win-win arrangement.
Don't be afraid to offer a deal which looks better for them than it is for you. The main thing is that you want the link to your site.
Traffic coming from your "competitors" would be beautifully targeted and should give you a very high conversion rate.
Traffic coming via search engines from people who are actively searching for information on link exchanges, link swamps, reciprocal links etc would also be beautifully targeted.
Perhaps you could also broaden your approach to include reciprocal links with a few hundred or thousand general Internet marketing sites, so that you're not too limited by the size of your small niche.
When asking those Internet marketing sites for a link, you could offer them a free rebrandable book you've written (or hired someone to write) in which all the affiliate links are THEIR links. It mentions your site, of course. That's the pay-off for you.
Under your present model, where people subscribe and place a link on their sites to you, your site is a good example of the power of one-way linking, not reciprocal linking. By doing more reciprocal linking, you'd be demonstrating that you believe in the concept you're promoting, and you'd also be proving that it works.
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Phil Tanny
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:37 am
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Hi again Charlie,
| Charlie wrote: | | In reality they are often the biggest objection the buyer needs to overcome - at least the ones I come across. |
Right, that's how I see it as well.
| Quote: | | Surely, the salesman could feel valuable by just seeing how effectively he'd let the buyer sell himself. Power without effort, would appeal to me even more than control, I think. |
Agree again. And there are salespeople like this, it's a joy to watch them work. I wouldn't say "no effort" though. A good salesperson is expert at knowing more about their product and related issues than anybody, and that takes work. And being mature enough to get what we're talking about often involves
some trial and error experience. And having the courage to walk away from the group consensus could be described as work. Actually answering emails from prospects is work, I'm amazed how often I contact an online business with money in my out reached hand and nobody gets back to me.
It's too bad that the dullness of so many gives sales a bad rap, because it's potentially as artful of a profession as any other.
| Quote: | | Does the ice on the top represent how thick their skins are? |
Yea, that could be! Going down to 25 tonite here in Florida, so I'll go out and check the pool for thick skin in the morning.
| Quote: | | When they seated themselves in his office, he would start a big stopwatch (standing on his desk and preset to two minutes, or whatever). I loved this approach... |
Works for me! That's essentially what I do on most web selling pages.
| Quote: | | I'm not 100% sure you'd have made it as a truck driver Phil. By the way, you never did tell me what a remodeler is. |
Oh sorry. In my previous life I used be involved in tearing old houses apart and putting them back together. And all kinds of related stuff. The best part was taking a 100 year old Victorian that had been neglected for 50 years and bringing it back to life. A year long giant craft project involving much noise and dust. Very dirty, very satisfying, not especially profitable.
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Phil Tanny
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:48 am
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Hi Allan, thanks as always for weighing in.
| AllanGardyne wrote: | | If I really believed in it and I thought those 30 people were likely to tell other people about it, I'd work darn hard at it. |
Out of the 30 people 1 will tell other people about it. That definitely helps, and is appreciated, but you have to be realistic. I mean, I have to be realistic.
| AllanGardyne wrote: | | I'd regard every single new subscriber as a major victory because I'd know that eventually I'd reach a tipping point where the project would start to snowball wonderfully, where succeess would breed more success. |
I do think patience is an important ingredient that I could use reminders on. Slow and steady progress seems a worthy goal, can't honestly say I see a snowballing tipping point happening any time soon, as that depends on the 30 telling another 30. 1 of the 30 telling 1, will feed slow and steady growth though.
| Quote: | | (I hope you're encouraging all your subscribers to tell their friends or their newsletters readers about your free service. Explain that for the thing to work and for them to benefit, they need to do that.) |
Right, that's the key, and I do make that point in every communication. This thing can go at the speed that I promote it, or at the speed that 200 members promote it.
It's completely reasonable for my members to see the promotion as my job, but that view does seriously limit the potential benefits they might otherwise receive.
Let's keep in mind that all involved are understandly involved from a "what's in it for me" perspective. I'm not arguing with that a bit, just trying to explain why someone wouldn't take the time to promote "Phil's site" when they don't see a direct line to how they personally benefit.
The pay back is more general, more theoretical, and in a world pounding with inputs and distractions, that's enough to kill the idea for most.
Even if I make the incoming links income generating (on the list) still the overwhelming majority of incoming links will be buried on a links page, which has it's logic because most of the member sites are not about webmaster stuff.
| Quote: | | It reminds me of my first website, built in April, 1996. |
I honestly believe that my and your memories of 1996 are more an obstacle than asset at this point. I envy the folks who weren't there, and thus don't compare this environment to that one. Well, that's true for me at least, I shouldn't try to speak for you.
| Quote: | | The essence of your site is reciprocal linking. Therefore, wouldn't it make sense to link to a few hundred articles on linking methods etc, and get those sites to link back to you? Then your site could be a living, breathing example of the power of reciprocal linking. |
My site is a living breathing example of my experience that _cold contacting_ people for link exchanges is dead, dead, dead.
I don't mean it never works in any circumstance, I mean it's not worth the effort involved on any serious scale, the return on investment is too small.
The point of my site is to bring together all those who are ready, able and willing to link, right now, today. That's who people who want links should aim all their attention at, imho.
My site is an example of the power of partnerships, when conducted efficiently. 400 incoming links in 30 days, by offering something more valuable than a single link.
I will recip link with my members, as soon as they figure out how easy it is to get that incoming link. Check my site if you want to unravel this mystery. I've made this invitation to all members, and 3 or 4 of them get it so far.
| Quote: | | Better still, you could also use the search engines effectively by adding hundreds of useful articles to your site. |
Yes, I'm with you here. The whole point for me of links-for-you, keywords-for-you and the upcoming writers-for-you is to put myself in a position where I can follow this strategy in a serious way.
My only hesitation is whether I should first work on adding content to Links-For-You, or aim at a less competitive market, given that I'm really a beginner at this strategy. Not wanting to make the "created YET ANOTHER webmaster portal!" error, but I'm open minded. I'd like to learn more about linking if nothing else.
| Quote: | | Here's one way you could start getting those articles. You could approach all your major "competitors" and tell them you think your site is complementary. You could invite them to write a keyword-rich article describing their service and publish it on your site. In return, they would link back to your site or, even better but not absolutely necessary, publish your article on their site. It would be a win-win arrangement. |
Did this with one very complementary site this month. They sell link management service, I help people get links. A perfect match. I joined their affiliate program. Put their links on my site. I contacted them via the contact form on their site. Short, polite, professional letter offering a link partnership via their existing partner directory. No reply. So I waited a week and contacted them again via the CJ affiliate interface. Again no reply.
I'm selling for these guys now. I could sell lot's more as I have the PERFECT audience. They are a prominent industry leader best I can tell.
They get the axe next time I'm updating my site, I just don't enough time to sit here all day writing folks who don't reply.
Sorry guys, I don't mean to be a party pooper, I really don't. But I have to deal with the reality of what happens in these cold calling scenarios. Allan, I'm sorry to repeat this, but please recall that cold calling you doesn't work either.
| Quote: | | Traffic coming via search engines from people who are actively searching for information on link exchanges, link swamps, reciprocal links etc would also be beautifully targeted. |
Yes, I agree, if I can get some decent listings, that is a good plan. Again, people who have proven they are interested.
One thing we haven't discussed which I'm going to explore is buying links. Again, the same principle, doing business with folks who have proven they are ready to do a linking deal.
| Quote: | | Under your present model, where people subscribe and place a link on their sites to you, your site is a good example of the power of one-way linking, not reciprocal linking. |
I hear you, and agree to a degree.
I'm not going to do a "links page" so my site may never look like an example of recip linking.
As example, see my article about your site. You've linked to me from your newsletter, and I've linked to you in my article, but it doesn't look like recip linking, and we didn't arrange it that way in the traditional "link swap" manner. But we're linked together.
Anyway, sorry for the all the words. I do agree with much of what you've suggested. The biggest obstacle is probably just me deciding how much I want to commit to a site that is basically based on SEO considerations, inspite of all the other opportunties that could be considered.
Thanks again guys, I do appreciate all the feedback, even while engaging in debate mode with you.
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AllanGardyne
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:35 am
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I swear that was just an innocent typo! 
| Quote: | | The biggest obstacle is probably just me deciding how much I want to commit to a site that is basically based on SEO considerations, inspite of all the other opportunties that could be considered. |
Fair enough.
SiteSell's Value Exchange began very slowly, even with lots of affiliates available to promote it. It eventually became a useful service. I don't see any reason why yours shouldn't do the same.
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Charlie
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:47 pm
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| Phil Tanny wrote: | | Quote: | | Surely, the salesman could feel valuable by just seeing how effectively he'd let the buyer sell himself. Power without effort, would appeal to me even more than control, I think. |
Agree again. And there are salespeople like this, it's a joy to watch them work. |
I've increasingly ended up buying pretty much on recommendation or through my own pre-sales questions. I hardly ever read sales letters with a view to purchasing - just analysing...
| Quote: | | I'm amazed how often I contact an online business with money in my out reached hand and nobody gets back to me. |
It's the same with me.
But I'm pretty sure were' not that rare, Phil. I certainly hope so, as "being your own customer" is hard enough already.
| AllanGardyne wrote: |
I swear that was just an innocent typo! |
I like the subconscious ones the best. They don't get censored at all.
| Quote: | | I honestly believe that my and your memories of 1996 are more an obstacle than asset at this point. I envy the folks who weren't there, and thus don't compare this environment to that one. |
This sounds like my old favourite excuse - "I wish I knew what I know now, back in...". I can remember the online world of 1997 and it was certainly more than a bit different.
I think it's fair to say links-for-you would have been so far ahead of the curve, Larry & Co. would have struggled to understand your foresight however much they'd paid you.
All the best,
Charlie.
P.S. | Quote: | | The best part was taking a 100 year old Victorian that had been neglected for 50 years and bringing it back to life. |
Only in America.
_________________
"Before I speak, I have something important to say."
- Groucho Marx |
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Phil Tanny
Joined:
22 Aug 2003
Posts:
1324
Location:
Gainesville Florida USA
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