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W Paul Blakey
Joined:
21 Sep 2004
Posts:
10
Location:
Sechelt, BC, Canada
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Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:51 pm
Post subject: SiteSell complaint - blacklisted for speaking freely
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I have a specific complaint against the SiteSell 5 Pillar Affiliate Program. If you want to see the whole thread you need to be a Site Build It owner, because it is on a closed forum. If you have access to the forum please go to:
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?t=1569
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?t=1666
If you want to see the threads that refer to my complaint on this forum go to:
http://associateprograms.com/discus/ftopic7525.html
On December 30th Ken Evoy (CEO of SiteSell) posted a final diatribe against me on the SBI forum. He then locked the thread so that I was unable to reply. I posted a new topic which he deleted and locked. Apparently I am now banned from the forum so I am forced to go public once again.
The basis of my complaint is that the 5 Pillar Affiliate Program, though advertised as giving "lifetime commissions" in fact only pays commissions on repeat sales as long as you continue to generate new sales.
If you go to the links above you will be able to read (if you've got a couple of hours) Ken's reasoning on the subject.
I WOULD LIKE TO STATE CATEGORICALLY THAT I AM NOT SAYING THAT SITESELL OR KEN EVOY ARE MAKING FALSE STATEMENTS OR DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL.
But, the 5 Pillar Affiliate Program is quite complicated to understand and I think they have not made it clear at the beginning that what they call lifetime commissions should actually be called "conditional lifetime commissions."
Ken thinks that they have in fact created a system that is more than fair, and is designed to reward active players, which it does. He goes on to say that the system is designed to weed out people who do not want to continue to work to make new sales. As I said before, if you want the full story, go to the links provided.
My complaint now is that Ken Evoy is attacking me personally, and not giving me the respect of being able to reply on a forum that I (as a paid up Site Build It owner) should have full access to. I have not been rude, or used bad language, I simply do not agree with Ken.
Since he deleted my reply to his most recent post, I am forced to post it here.
I am quoting the parts of his post that relate directly to me...
| Quote: |
CONTRARY to just one of the many inaccurate
statements of W Paul, passive repeat earnings
do NOT, in fact, disappear. All you have to
do is make an active sale, and BINGO... a
wonderful bonus kicks into place. |
That doesn't make any sense, passive means 'not acting' and active means 'given to action.' So passive income cannot be the same as active income. Read Rich Dad, Poor Dad if you want an accurate definition of passive income.
| Quote: | It seems some folks are RISING to the
occasion of the re-vamp, rather than one who
complains, whines, refuses to accept the
hours I pour into THESE forums explaining the
logic and reasoning of a company that has
way-outgrown the original TVI, and THEN even
spreads half-truths and out-of-context
misleading posts through outside forums AFTER
I put in all that energy to explain
accurately, factually, and completely the how
and why of the re-vamp, WITHOUT the courtesy
of even mentioning the back-and-forth and
replies I had given. |
If you read the replies on this forum (http://associateprograms.com/discus/ftopic7525.html) you will see that I am not the only one questioning the lifetime commission claim. You spend the hours replying because it is for your benefit to do so. If there was no substance in what I am saying why do you bother to reply? I was happy to let it lie, but you had to put in your last, final, penultimate word.
| Quote: | I have no problem with ANYONE taking ANYTHING
I say in these forums outside, on any subject,
as long as it is done factually, completely,
and with fair and accurate attribution. |
Translation: You can say what you like as long as you do it my way.
| Quote: | (That said, please do not quote anything that
anyone else says here WITHOUT their permission.
These are private forums.) |
This is rich, coming from the man who posted my affiliate earnings on this forum.
| Quote: | But, if you talk about a thread that involves
me, I insist upon full, accurate and unbiased
reporting and NOT the intellectually
dishonest stuff that one affiliate pulled. |
I'm letting you speak in your own words...
| Quote: | P.S. to W Paul...
Folks like Dennis Mellersh and "David & Darryl" (who made a wonderful contribution that affected how we marketed MYCPS!, with 100% commissions to affiliates AND the customer retains first-time status) have understood my explanations after asking excellent questions that raised issues that I had not covered (or not covered well enough). After I spent the time that they deserved to receive good answers, they "get it" and we all move on. |
I "get it" I just don't like it. You can do better.
| Quote: | I have spent a huge amount of time on you, W Paul, to the detriment of where I should be placing my time, but this is my last post on this. You refuse to accept what I'm saying and reduce this to argumentation, both here and elsewhere, and I expect you will continue to do so despite this final, very positive outcome.
I simply have no more time to spend on this with you. If you do not like it, W Paul, please resign from the 5 Pillar Program. It's a free world, and there are many fantastic GRQ programs out there that promise money forever, for very little upfront work. Good luck with them.
W Paul, you're also welcome to take the debate to any other forum, but please keep it factual and complete, as outlined above, and don't forget to include this final statement on the issue. You're also welcome to leave if the 5P Program is not to your liking.
P.P.S, For anyone coming to this thread for the first time and out-of-context, the links to the two threads of relevance (regarding specifically the TVI adjustment that has, it turns out, increased payments overall) start at...
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?t=1569
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?t=1666
Please do read them in their entirety for background. I am posting this in both, and now it's time to move on. |
On page 2 of the Getting Started Action Guide (for 5 Pillar Affiliates) you state:
| Quote: | The 5 Pillar Program pays a generous commission on...
1) the first order by a customer who was referred by you.
2) every subsequent order (for other products) by that customer... forever!
3) sales generated by affiliates who were referred by you.
Add to that...
? a best-of-breed line of business-building solutions
? a non-terminatable, transferable agreement
? a limited number of affiliates
? ongoing communication and education
? proven marketing tools
The result?
The Best Affiliate Program on the Net...
One that goes way beyond income-generation.
The 5 Pillar Program builds equity for you, our partner-in-sales. |
Change 2) to say "every subsequent order (for other products) by that customer... forever (as long as you continue to generate new sales above a minumum bench mark)."
I and would shut up forever.
Just be clear, don't give me excuses about it spoiling the flow of the text
That was pretty much the reply that I posted as "Merry Christmas Ken" on the closed forum. Instead of letting people see my reply, Ken deleted my post, making it appear that I was ranting and raving so he had to ban me from the forum. If this isn't intellectual dishonesty and abuse of power I don't know what is... here's the post, so you can see what he said and did:
| Quote: | Hello Ken,
Merry Christmas to you too... so nice to see that you don't hold a grudge or anything.
***************************
Ugh.
The rest of the post has been deleted by Ken.
W Paul will be banned from the forum.
I do not have a second more for him.
W Paul, take it elsewhere. But do it under the fair use terms that I outline in the URLs below.
Govern yourself accordingly. There is no second warning on this.
W Paul, you are not welcome here.
This topic has been beaten to death and the FINAL words (that you cannot accept) are at...
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?p=19676&highlight=#19676
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?p=19682&highlight=#19682
Those threads were locked. Opening yet another thread is blatant disrespect. There is simply nothing more to be said on this, and I will not waste my time on the one person who absolutely, positively must get the last word in. Feel free to take this anywhwere else, but do it accurately or our next meeting will be in court. I personally will not spend another second on this. I have done my best and it's time to move on...
We have successful businesses to build and more productive ways to spend our time. |
As Ken suggested I am taking this anywhwere (sic) else, and I have attempted to be as accurate as possible, including all relevant links and so on.
You decide.
_________________
Paul Blakey
http://www.selfpublishersclub.com |
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AllanGardyne
Site Admin
Joined:
02 Jul 2003
Posts:
6302
Location:
by the beach, Australia
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:03 am
Post subject:
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Paul, It looks to me as if you're expending an awful lot of energy trying to change Ken's mind.
If you put that energy into achieving just one sale of SBI each month, you'd be a lot better off.
_________________
Allan Gardyne
AssociatePrograms.com - You're here. Explore it! |
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jlc
Joined:
30 Nov 2004
Posts:
11
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:15 am
Post subject: Paul, why not find another venue for your complaint
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Paul,
Can you explain why you're so obsessed with the affiliate program in question and what you hope to gain by imposing this obsession on the whole associateprograms forum community indefinitely?
Are you hoping that the company in question will change its policies in response to the arguments of you and others in this forum? Unfortunately, I think they've put themselves in a position where they can't do that without losing face.
I also think it was egregious for an executive to post your earnings publicly, but we now know you don't seem to have a lot of money invested in the affiliate program you're complaining about. And there are many other hosting/internet consulting affiliate programs out there with more straight-forward commission programs that you can join at any time.
If you're really that irritated with a company, why not see if you can take concrete action about your complaint instead of writing redundant forum postings? I'm not a lawyer, but if I were you (and I were this irritated with a company I had almost no money invested in), I'd investigate the possibility of pursuing a breach-of-contract suit. I'm surprised the company in question wasn't advised to grandfather in the residual commissions of you and other long-time affiliates as a professional courtesy at the very least.
It sounds (to me) like a company promised you you'd be payed residual commissions on a certain commisson schedule, and then pulled a "sorry, we changed our mind" when it came time to payout those commissions. I don't know whether or not the company intended to employ an unfair or dishonest business practice when it re-wrote its commission program. But the end result seems unprofessional and unfair irrespective of the company's original intentions. It also sounds to me like you're not the only less-than-thrilled affiliate out there right now either.
So why not talk with a qualified attorney and see if he/she thinks your complaint is actionable? Or if you don't want to go that route, write to the FTC, Better Business Bureau, Rip-Off-Report, etc. and see if they'll take action about your grievance.
Paul, I feel for you, I really do. I, also, feel that I've been treated less-than-fairly in the online and offline business world and it's very demoralizing. At least in your case, the company-in-question responded to your complaints instead of ignoring you.
But at this point, I think the redundant "airing petty and personal dirty laundry" forum postings are just annoying people and taking attention away from your clear and well-constructed arguments. Why not find another venue for your beef?
JLC |
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AllanGardyne
Site Admin
Joined:
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Posts:
6302
Location:
by the beach, Australia
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:48 am
Post subject: Re: Paul, why not find another venue for your complaint
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| jlc wrote: | | It sounds (to me) like a company promised you you'd be payed residual commissions on a certain commisson schedule, and then pulled a "sorry, we changed our mind" when it came time to payout those commissions. |
Paul wants you to see it that way, but if you read through all the posts on this forum on this issue you'll find that the facts aren't nearly as simple as Paul wants you to believe.
All new affiliates are instructed to read the Getting Started Action Guide - http://www.sitesell.com/blakey/GettingStarted.pdf .
It's easy to find sentences in the Action Guide which say simply that affiliates earn lifetime commissions.
However, it's also easy to find sentences which say that the Five Pillar Program is designed to reward "ongoing activity" and discourages the "short-term-burst-then-collect-residual-income" approach.
That warning has existed since the program began.
What is clear is that Paul misunderstood how the affiliate program operates. He now wants changes made in the description. Ken doesn't want to make them.
The big puzzle is why Paul repeatedly bangs his head against a brick wall instead using the time to earn affiliate commissions.
_________________
Allan Gardyne
AssociatePrograms.com - You're here. Explore it! |
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Phil Tanny
Joined:
22 Aug 2003
Posts:
1324
Location:
Gainesville Florida USA
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:52 am
Post subject: Re: Paul, why not find another venue for your complaint
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| Quote: | | The big puzzle is why Paul repeatedly bangs his head against a brick wall instead using the time to earn affiliate commissions. |
Not a puzzle here. The kind of ad copy used to sell just about everything on the Net is designed to stimulate emotional responses. It worked!
The puzzle for me is why ad writers who aim at this part of the human mind are so often surprised when they hit the target they are aiming for.
If we could give up the sales writing strategies game, then we could "treat this like a business" and accurately describe the SiteSell program as what it is, "a reputable program that pays generous recurring commissions to active salespeople."
Why tell me that a "customer belongs to me forever" but somebody other than me will decide if/when I get my commissions? If I don't actually "own" the customer, in the normal use of that word, then I don't really have "equity" either, right?
Why use words that beg for misunderstandings?
There aren't bad people here, just an outdated unconstructive philosophy we're all infected with to one degree or another.
Let's uninstall it, and move forward in to a more business like future.
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administrator
Site Admin
Joined:
02 Jul 2003
Posts:
1472
Location:
Maryborough Queensland Australia
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:05 am
Post subject:
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Paul,
Allan is so tolerant and he is trying to be give practical advice in his usual polite manner - but I am not and I've told you before this hobbyhorse is done to death.
Your efforts to most are now a waste of time and space. Perhaps I should delete these topics. For the moment they stand - but if you continue to re-iterate the whole thread, I'll delete the lot!
Wally Morgan - Moderator
P.S. Damn! I went to delete your parallel promotion letter in the other thread and deleted the topic in error!! That was accidental - I hope you believe that.
Last edited by administrator on Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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W Paul Blakey
Joined:
21 Sep 2004
Posts:
10
Location:
Sechelt, BC, Canada
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:11 pm
Post subject: Trying to make this clear to people
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Thank you for your comments everyone.
What keeps me clinging to this like a pit bull with its teeth in a bone is the fact that Ken Evoy continues to attack me personally, rather than just explain the issue.
I posted this reply in response to Ken's nasty put down on the closed forum, I had not posted anything more on this topic since December 8th. I was happy to leave it be.
As long as Ken Evoy keeps pointing his finger at me I will defend myself. If he wants to argue the issue in general then fine, I am done with it.
If he wants to take advantage of his position as forum moderator to prevent me from being able to defend myself, then I have no option but to utilize a public forum.
It seems that the only people who are annoyed by these postings are the forum moderators. I don't see a huge number of readers telling me to shut it. And the ones that do disagree with me seem to be able to do so with considerable grace.
Allan, if I am trying to make people believe that SiteSell pulled a fast one, why did I put this in bold?
I WOULD LIKE TO STATE CATEGORICALLY THAT I AM NOT SAYING THAT SITESELL OR KEN EVOY ARE MAKING FALSE STATEMENTS OR DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL.
How more clearly do I have to state that SiteSell are not deliberately trying to scam people?
All I want is for Ken Evoy to stop using me as the focal point for all his anger and frustration, and to stop censoring my postings. Same for the moderator on this panel (that's twice my postings have suddenly disappeared - oops sorry).
_________________
Paul Blakey
http://www.selfpublishersclub.com |
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Phil Tanny
Joined:
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Posts:
1324
Location:
Gainesville Florida USA
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:39 pm
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Paul,
I think you've raised an interesting topic, both in regards to SiteSell specifically, and affiliate marketing in general. Oh, and sales writing too, did I mention that? 
I think what some might be trying to say is that the personality conflict between you and Ken is getting tiresome, because that part of the story really doesn't effect the rest of us. That part of the story is becoming mutual childhood bickering melodrama, not something really related to affiliate marketing.
My vote would be that you and Ken rent a hotel room and have a duel, duke it out, or whatever, and leave us out of it.
But a constructive conversation on the broader issues raised by your experience would be welcomed here, and probably by at least some other reader/posters.
So now that we've gathered some information, and had some experiences, how do we use that to move forward?
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W Paul Blakey
Joined:
21 Sep 2004
Posts:
10
Location:
Sechelt, BC, Canada
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:50 pm
Post subject: Constructive conversation...
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| Phil Tanny wrote: | Paul,
But a constructive conversation on the broader issues raised by your experience would be welcomed here, and probably by at least some other reader/posters.
So now that we've gathered some information, and had some experiences, how do we use that to move forward? |
Hi Phil,
I agree.
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Paul Blakey
http://www.selfpublishersclub.com |
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MakeMoney
Joined:
21 Jul 2004
Posts:
119
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:05 am
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How active must you be to get the lifetime commissions from site build it? Do you need to achieve sales or send them unique visitors to be considered active? If it's sales, what is the frequency of sales you need to achieve?
I made a minor sale a few months ago (as an affiliate in the 5 pillar program) and the person that I referred for the first sale just made a major purchase and I did get the commission in my account. Nice commission too!
Thanks,
MM |
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AllanGardyne
Site Admin
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MakeMoney
Joined:
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Posts:
119
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:34 am
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Can one as an affiliate of the 5 pillar program access that forum?
Thanks,
mm |
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MakeMoney
Joined:
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Posts:
119
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:54 am
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I don't get it. I made a minor sale a few months ago and the person just bought the main site build it product. My understanding was that customers that you refered were yours for life in terms of future sales and commissions without qualifications. Will I get this 25% commission or is me getting it dependant on making more first person sales?
Simple answer appreciated.
thanks,
MM
Last edited by MakeMoney on Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MakeMoney
Joined:
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Posts:
119
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:05 am
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Ok, I think I get it, I need to make $500 in first person sales to be eligible for 100% of repeat sales commissions.
I am glad I came upon this thread. I was searching for something completely unrelated to the topic of this thread. I have to say I am disappointed as I thought all repeat sale commissions would be honored with no qualifications. But if those are the rules then those are the rules.
Anyways, I wish everybody well with their programs.
Best,
MM
Last edited by MakeMoney on Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:40 am; edited 2 times in total |
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MakeMoney
Joined:
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Posts:
119
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:23 am
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So, just making sure I completely understand this....
Say you make a small sale in a one month period and that sale turns into a bigger sale (as they often do) a few months later. Do I lose a chance at commissions on the bigger sale if I make no first person sales during the month of the posting of the second sale?
Thanks,
MM |
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