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Phil CA
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Lynn Terry
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Phil CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:42 am
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Hi Lynn,
Thanks for posting. 
Some very interesting discussions going on in some places. 
Markus's forum is getting lots of activity so I guess we know what Smart Marketing is really all about. 
http://www.marketing-ideas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=301
All the best
Phil |
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raveon
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:21 am
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Thanks for those links Phil, I've never run across anybody with the breadth of information and site URLs that you provide.
I was never convinced to purchase "Traffic Secrets", it was just more of the same tired hype. Headlines, testimonials from the same old crew (although I must admit Gary Halbert surprised me) and the email sent by John trying to "close the deal" by getting his next product free was also amateurish and really convinced me to pass.
I was hoping that John Reese really had stepped up to the level of a Ken Evoy in one giant step but after reading Markus Allen it seems that is not the case. I love finding people like Markus Allen who so obviously are NOT trying to sell me the product...(thanks for that link Phil), I have been pouring over his site rather than any of John's, he seems so much more credible to me. Before I read Markus Allen I had even applied to be an affiliate, assuming the reviews would be glowing, now...I don't think so.
This massive campaign may have some far-reaching ramifications. For example, if the course is viewed by pros (not affiliated with John) as fluff will that hurt the "gurus" who endorsed it so hard? People like Gary Halbert who are viewed as very objective and not afraid to slam a mediocre product, if the consensus from the "real deal" guys is that it's a poor product that has to hurt his reputation. By "real deal" I mean they are receiving nothing from John for their review and are simply giving an honest opinion.
If it's fluff will John Reese disappear from view?
We all know that things evolve and change especially on the web.
Perhaps the day of the "Traffic Secrets" sales page is coming to end and a more intelligent and relevant type of writing will replace it. Surely readers of these pages are starting to "catch on" by now.
Perhaps the day of the "guru promotion gang" is coming to an end? How many more times will we see the same crew endorsing each others products before we smell some possible corruption and collusion?
It seems that many of the "gurus" are starting to be exposed as salespeople period, selling whatever pays the most and not what they truly believe in.
The next twelve months promises to be very interesting indeed.
David |
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Phil CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:03 am
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Hi David,
Excellent comments and glad that your enjoying some of the links I post.
Regarding Markus Allen, he can sometimes be a little controversial about things so keep that in mind. When Google Adsense first came out there was a similiar type review and here's an interesting AP thread I started where Allan, Calvin69 (Markus) and a few others discuss a few things including that. You'll find it interesting.
http://www.associateprograms.com/discus/ftopic3601.html&highlight=paypal
You probably notice that I recommend following the proven marketing professionals from the Offline world as the best resources for Quality information. A couple of my favorites are http://www.marketingprofs.com and http://www.marketingsherpa.com
If these are new to you, consider signing up to their free newsletters and you'll get connected to 100's of the best marketing people in the world with out all the Hype. The Free knowledge that you get works to build any online/offline business.
All the best
Phil |
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Sean Burns
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:40 am
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Hi Phil
Here is the link to my newsletter:
http://www.webmastersreference.com/cgi-bin/wrmail/mojo.cgi?flavor=archive&id=20040818213927&list=WebmastersReference_Newsletter
I wasn't really commenting on that product specifically - it was more just an example of a "bigger issue".
Interestingly I had more unsubscribes from that issue than anything I'd sent previously It was a good marketing test in itself because I knew that it would annoy some people. Oh well, you can't please everybody.
To sum it up, if you are online to make money, don't get annoyed at other people making money - learn from it. If you are trying to run an online business, make business decisions - not "emotional" decisions.
In regards to Markus, he's a 100% honest guy - and a very good marketer. If someone doesn't like the "guru" culture, why do they like his review that is pushing Yanik Silver's products
Cheers
Sean Burns |
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DatabaseDesigner
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Phil CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 am
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Thanks Sean,
Usually, not all your newsletters are archived.
Is there a particular reason or am I missing something?
I felt your comments were well written and safe but I guess there are some very good lessons for everyone to learn on the whole thing.
And a few more good points from Gary who also puts out some interesting info and since he's buying, some good info.
http://www.resellmastercourse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=983#983
All the best
Phil |
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Sean Burns
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:35 am
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Hi Phil
All of my newsletters are archived but I usually forget to link to them from my homepage - you can find them here http://www.webmastersreference.com/cgi-bin/wrmail/mojo.cgi?flavor=archive&list=WebmastersReference_Newsletter
Gary's information is excellent. When things like this happen, you can get irritated or learn from it - I know which is better for "business". That doesn't mean people have to buy the product but being so negative that these choose to ignore it's lessons won't help them - IMHO.
Cheers
Sean Burns |
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Timothy Warnock
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:56 pm
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You know, having been on the receiving end of A LOT of criticism after a very successful launch, and knowing that the people who were making the criticisms certainly didn't bother to ask me or anyone else directly involved with that launch what REALLY happened, made me realize, when you do become successful, you will get flack!
It's like watching professional athletes in any sporting event, if they win, great, they're heros.
If they lose, well, damn! If so and so only did what I suggested (as an armchair coach) - they would have won! How many armchair coaches do ALL of us know? Do you think they would last even 10 seconds with the athletes that they are criticising so passionately?
The incredible irony and hypocrisy here, in the internet marketing world anyway, is that when someone really succeeds the armchair coaches come out of the woodworks to give their professional criticisms when they win!
Good God! John Reese sold over $1,080,000 in 18 hours!
If that isn't proof that the man knows what the hell he is talking about, then please, show me your proof, and be ready to charge $5,000 a head for others to see it, face to face in a conference hall, and let's see if you get a standing ovation for sharing it, like John did.
I've spoken in front of others that are paying pricey fees, and I can tell you, it is no joke - either you have the goods to share, or you don't. There is no faking in face to face conferences...
I wasn't a promoter for John, but I have been receiving his stuff for a couple of years, and I have to say, he is brilliant. Very, very few can work the online world like he can.
I have also been deeply impressed by his down to earth, funny, and very generous nature - he calls a spade a spade, or a heart a heart. I have found his newsletter to be one of the absolute best available.
I can't tell you how many times, my Italian partner (who is also a rare, and brilliant online marketer that you have never heard of), either phoned me, or wrote to me, saying, "Tim, have you seen the latest from John Reese?", with excitement and enthusiasm in his voice, because John just gave another stunning tip, that anyone with even just some real experience would recognize as gold in a flash.
My own morals have been brought into question because I was involved in a successful launch that used an aggressive sales letter, now I hear a bunch of nimwits questioning John's morals, and all those that participated in this, in broad, sweeping blanket judgement statements, that frankly, make me ill.
Sure, some of the marketers involved in this launch, might use tactics that you would not use, or I would not use, but please people, get out of the armchair coaching box and do what John did over the last 14 years to find your own record breaking success, and for the love of Christ, get off of a holier than thou preacher box that casts judgement, chopping off heads in an attempt to make yourself taller...
_________________
Timothy Warnock
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DatabaseDesigner
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:34 pm
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Tim,
As always, your posts are great. 
I have no problem with the launch of that particular program. I have however, a problem when I receive email from so-called IM gurus saying
"Wow, I'm sitting here with my pencil sharpened and taking in every word..." all of them promoting the same launch. At one moment they pretend to be THE guru: The next moment they're full of praise and admiration for the next product... Do not tell me it isn't coordinated 
Give me a break!
BUT: I'm learning all the time, and I think I see an IM network emerging: Supporting each other, and working as a team. Am I paranoid? No, I don't think so.
Who are the victims? Take a look in the mirror.
BTW, Tim: I have now edited my homepage as suggested- I'm no IM guru, but I know what I'm talking about. Hope it is better now. In any case: All you suggested made sense, and I have done my best.
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DatabaseDesigner
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raveon
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:38 pm
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Tim your entire argument seems to be based on the fact that the program was successful so it must be right. That's not only overly simplistic it's flat out wrong.
Your answer to the all criticisms seems to be "who cares" what you think, he made money! You don't see anything wrong with that from a long term business and branding perspective?
You can win the battle and lose the war.
It would seem John Reese is certainly poised to become the next "lead guru" but to accomplish this in the long term will require a solid reputation, a reliable and trusted brand (John Reese) and continued innovation and delivery.
Again I can only speak for myself and I am aware that I may not be the target market however I am confident there are many others who think like me.
This campaign accomplished none of the above, in fact it simply brought him "back to the pack" rather than truly differentiating him any way. He may have won this battle but what about the future? I for one feel more negatively about John Reese after this campaign than I did before it...that can't be a good thing can it? Or am I simply irrelevant because I'm a harder sell?
In the real world we all know there are many types of sales people from used car salesman to very high-end sales people who sell million dollar software packages to large companies. Both are relevant and both deserve respect for what they do and of course both use very different styles to achieve their goals.
Why is it that every "guru" seems to believe that all Internet selling should be of the used car variety?
I for one would have responded more favorably to a campaign that spoke to me as an intelligent person who would be more than happy to part with a $1,000 if I was convinced the value was there. Instead I'm bombarded by a sales page that is full of testimonials, headlines and over-hyped copy, almost no real information at all...how am I supposed to make a buying decision based on that?
The obvious tactic of getting other "senior hypsters" involved as sales people was also very transparent and just hurt the campaign and the product perception in my view.
BTW: How do we know for sure it was so successful? I'm assuming there must be absolute proof rather than just a claim?
Marcia Yudkin has a nice little piece on "hype writing" that has some relevance to this debate.
http://www.yudkin.com/hype.htm
David Neale |
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Timothy Warnock
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:11 pm
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Alf,
My comments weren't specifically directed at you.
The thread here is A LOT more subdued then it is in the forum that Phil pointed to, and I should say here that I posted in that forum as well, and perhaps it was more directed there than here.
Like I said, I don't agree with all the promotional techniques that all big list owners use, but I withold judgement. I just don't do it if I don't like it.
Or, I just don't buy if it doesn't feel like something that will help me to better my business - story finished. Why get all flustered over a movement? I get a kick out of it!
| DatabaseDesigner wrote: | | "Wow, I'm sitting here with my pencil sharpened and taking in every word..." all of them promoting the same launch. At one moment they pretend to be THE guru: The next moment they're full of praise and admiration for the next product... Do not tell me it isn't coordinated |
Of course it is coordinated. What's the big deal? That's how big JV's work.
But it doesn't mean that the promoter isn't sincere... do you really know that they are insincere?
I wish John sent me a free copy of his course... and I wish I had a big list in English to promote this to... I would have done it too out of honor to John, because I have come to know and respect him.
I can pretty safely say that most are probably sincere when they promote his stuff. I didn't have the opportunity to see his course, nor did I buy it, but I saw one example of how he does a certain kind of niche promotion and it was impressive, outright brilliant. I will be incorporating that shortly into a project or two.
The big list promoters are successful individuals that are in contact with many other successful individuals - why call it a conspiracy, it is just JV marketing, nothing more.
John just happens to have more clout than most others. Why? Because he knows what he is doing, and he backs it with actions, not just "guru" words. He also almost never promotes stuff, or writes ebooks, etc. So this launch had a lot of unused momentum behind it - kind of a, "finally, John is sharing his secrets!" kind of enthusiasm behind it from those that have come to know him over the years.
I certainly don't blame you for unsubscribing to lists - I personally only receive 4 or 5 newsletters now. I'm simply far too busy, and the quality of most publications aren't usually that great. But John's is worth it IMHO.
All the best,
Tim
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Timothy Warnock
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DatabaseDesigner
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:44 pm
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| Timothy Warnock wrote: | Of course it is coordinated. What's the big deal? That's how big JV's work.
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Yes, Tim, That's a great revelation, and something to think about, folks:
We're being swarmed by IM guru emails telling us the latest sensation, and how they all have learned to be millionares from it. What a bluff. Read on:
I've seen it in action the last two days; that's why I have unsubscribed to so many places...
Don't get me wrong, Tim; You know my thankfulness This is more for the people who are lured into buying all different kinds of stuff, when we all know what really matters:
Getting traffic
Be polite/getting trust
Adressing an area of interest
And then:
Cooperate
Promote each other
Gain access to each others email lists
Get viral
Actually, lots of small folks (here at the forum )can do it really big, if we learn from this and cooperate...
I think I should start a thread about how to get your site overloaded with visitors in two hours
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DatabaseDesigner
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chaparraso
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20 Aug 2004
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:29 pm
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I'm a newbie gringo webhead, but I have some questions about this whole hype in sales letters issue and I like the ambiance here. Call me a naive moral philosopher if you will
About the audience for these products: What percentage of buyers are largely jaded from living in and working this tidepool? I've been on a dozen or so of the big lists for a few years and use lots of rock salt in my IM diet. Some of you are here and I want to thank you (seriously) for the education.
But don't you sense that we just keep on turning up the volume more and more in this realm? What would Darwin say about IM evolution? Would be have any hearing left to hear him?
Most or you look right through the hype and have an intuitive sense for the value of the product by knowing the person, feeling which way da wind blows, reading the forums, etc. You live in the environment. According to chaos theory, one sub-molecular change in the tidepool is felt by all, no? The other element here is that you also have web sites and inertia to put it to use.
Taking all this into consideration, does John's great success with this product really mean much in the real world for mortals like me who want to sell real goods and real services to real people? Yes, I know he made his billions selling real stuff and he really does know what he's talking about - really. Hold on, I'll stop the rant soon and crawl back under my rock to read my Action Guide and write more juicy content with my eye on the star.
Now, what about the real world (outside IM): I find it singularly depressing to think that people are so easy to manipulate by copy, cyber-hypnosis, NLP, ad nauseum. And yes, I know it works. It's worked on me, and I like to think I have some sophistication, discernment and anti-commecial backbone. I ain't no simple sea cucumber you know. But what about the ignorant unwashed masses floating out on the web ocean? And yes, I know you have to have some moral fiber in your web dealings or your returns, chargebacks, etc. go up if you don't deliver value.
Here's one concrete detail that has troubled me: I've heard it said that many people who buy don't bother to read the stuff and never ask for their money back either. And that not even out of shame or buyer's remorse, just plain old inertia (the non-moving type). What percentage of these people are captured by the hype? Yes, we know they are looking for one button millions. Does it bother you that they are sending in their money and not getting any good out of it? And I suppose this dynamic is the same in any other niche outside of IM too, no? Will this affect the universe? Do you believe in global warming?
I guess what I'm trying to ask or say is that it's kinda murky here in the tidepool for me as a recent entrant in the fray after being paralysed by analysis for so long. I'm not accusing anybody of being morally vacuous or trying to climb into the pulpit to rail, just asking about your inner moral struggles as you weigh all this in your marketing conscience.
Let me be purrfectly clear: I'm not writing this to offend anybody and forgive me in advance for being so painfully naive. What are your thoughts about this? Let the slings and arrows fly.
All the best - really,
Eric
Here's an interesting quote that, strangely, just arrived in my inbox:
No man, for any considerable time, can show one face to himself and another to the multitude without finally becoming bewildered as to which may be the true one. Nathaniel Hawthorne <a writer particularly adept at exposing puritans>
_________________
?? --- Eric Johnson - the gringo webhead --- ??
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