I never said that, and I don't support breaking the rules. But I'm not going to go out of my way to report them. I could understand if he said "Click my Ads NOW" but it was a freakin arrow, come on now...
People are too worried about other people's than success than their own. They want to reach their level, but find it easier to pull them down, then try to build themselves up.
Robert,
In regards to your comments to Paul, I also don't tend to go out of my way to report violations. With that said, I have two comments -
#1) When I viewed two of the pages, I didn't see text that read "Click my Ads Now." However, I did see text something along the lines of "Hot deals in our online auction database" right beside the arrow pointing to AdSense ads. That appeared to me to be misleading and a direct encouragement to click on the AdSense ads. Why does that matter? - see #2
#2) I guess different people take different things from reading comments, but I didn't infer that Paul's primary motivation was trying to pull someone down. Instead, I sensed a bit of frustration.
If you read through the various sections of this forum, you'll find people who are taking a lot of time and effort for SEO, good content management, worrying about following the rules of affiliate programs & AdSense, etc. When those people see others breaking or bending the rules and seeming to get ahead, it leads to frustration.
Paul mentioned digitalprecision.net - a site that is in clear violation of AdSense terms but yet remains in operation. Now along comes the story of someone who earns $15,000 a month or more and is selling an ebook on the subject. A couple of his sites are posted and when you visit them, you don't notice a lot of good relevant content, search engine optimization, etc. - what you notice is a page full of links and advertisements and a gimmick yellow arrow.
To give Joel the benefit of the doubt, those may not be pages that are accurate representations of what he does and the coolshopping.info and buyersuniverse.com sites seem to have been taken down as of now. Those pages may earn only a fraction of his AdSense revenue. He may have other pages with loads of excellent content and well optimized for SEO. I guess the only way to know for sure is to buy his ebook But my point is the impression is given that the way to get ahead is to use gimmicks and break rules.
Personally, I think the larger question here is "What's up with AdSense?" In the first few months of AdSense, there were reports of people getting removed from the program for violating the terms and that caused others to work hard to stay within the terms. Now it appears they don't care about enforcing the terms.
Further, Joel says he contacted Google before writing the ebook and releasing his statistical information. Back to the yellow arrow again - apparently AdSense didn't even bother to look at his pages to see what type of example he would provide to others before approving his release of some of his statistical information.
Based on this and other factors (such as the AdSense "Tell a friend" link), I'm really beginning to think AdSense sees such a huge potential AdWords inventory out there that they aren't really going to crack down on violations of their terms - at least not now. Rather, they want as many AdSense displays on the web as possible. The message seems to be to "go ahead and break the rules and if you get caught we'll slap you on the wrist."
Joined: 28 Sep 2003 Posts: 258 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:17 pm Post subject:
Hi All,
What I'm worried about is this: this book is suggesting actions that aren't acceptable by Google... the use of the graphic was questionable at the least, so a checkup before publishing with Google on this specific issue would've been in order.
Now, people actually risk their Adsense account (and income) because of following some silly suggestion.
Please disregard this next section. It was inappropriate wording on my part, I based my opinion on poor reading. Sorry!
BTW, another suggestion was to obscure the URL by making it just of view shades off-white. I think his is also not allowed under the T&C. However, this one isn't as bad, because Google will check text color against the background color, and will change the color to a legible combination.
Just my 2 cents.
All the best,
Erwin.
Last edited by esteneker on Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total
I didn't assume you did... I don't use them much so I "think" before I use one.
Quote:
My "emoticon chain" was associated with the quote, not the book (which I haven't read).
I guess I was just reading the "emoticon chain" and wanted to see if I read you right.
I read it as....
I buy the product --- It triggers a lightbulb moment goes to an idea and I'm usually disappointed.
But you could have met --> They promote lightbulb moments and you think you'll discover a new idea and usually find out it was good copywriting and a disappointed.
It's just the position of I vs. they
All the Best, _________________ Gary
- ONE is to small of a number to be a success!
Learn HOW TO create targeted, focused Content for your website!--> http://webcontenttips.com - Join Our Weekly Newsletter
Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 5815 Location: by the beach, Australia
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject:
esteneker wrote:
BTW, another suggestion was to obscure the URL by making it just of view shades off-white.
If you're implying that Joel suggests this in the book, or that someone says he says it, then he's been misquoted. It's an exaggeration of what he recommends.
He doesn't use the word "obscure" or the words "off-white". In that section on Page 18 Joel does recommend that you use "every legitimate" trick you can. There's a huge difference.
I don't think it would be fair to Joel to repeat exactly what he says.
From the discussions on this forum, someone might get the impression that Joel recommends deliberately breaking rules and using gimmicks. On the contrary, you'll be surprised to find how frequently he tells us that we'll get the best results if we have high-quality, unique sites. He says this several times.
The book is only 53 pages, and has a brief introduction. The rest is solid information. It doesn't waste time repeating information you can find at Google.
I'd love to know more details, such as the exact click-through rates achieved, and how many visitors Joel's sites get for him to earn over $500 a day. It's annoying that Google forbids us from discussing this stuff in detail.
If you've done a lot of exploring other sites for ideas, experimenting with AdSense ad colors, ad placement, ad sizes, page design, and have tracked your results and kept careful notes to learn what works, then you probably don't need this book.
However, if you want a short, easy to read book which neatly sums up all the important things you need to do, and shows you lots of examples of different things successful sites are doing, then you'll find this book very useful.
I think it's significant that someone as smart as Chris Pirillo of Lockergnome fame was able to be taught useful techniques by Joel.
If I'm interpreting Charlie's emoticons successfully, he scoffs at the idea that if you learn one good tip from a book, then the book was worth buying.
To me, the truth of that statement - especially when it concerns AdSense revenue where one small, simple change can have a big impact on your earnings - is so darn obvious there's nothing to debate
Joined: 28 Sep 2003 Posts: 258 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:09 am Post subject:
Hi Allan,
Allan wrote:
If you're implying that Joel suggests this in the book, or that someone says he says it, then he's been misquoted. It's an exaggeration of what he recommends.
He doesn't use the word "obscure" or the words "off-white". In that section on Page 18 Joel does recommend that you use "every legitimate" trick you can. There's a huge difference.
I was indeed referring to page 18, section 3.7. After re-reading it, I agree that my choice of words in this regard isn't appropriate.
I suddenly realize I sounded a lot like the whiners in that other thread... and I don't want to.
Talk about a picture's worth a thousand words, that emoticon chain's caused a thousand...
speedguide wrote:
I read it as....
I buy the product --- It triggers a lightbulb moment goes to an idea and I'm usually disappointed.
But you could have met --> They promote lightbulb moments and you think you'll discover a new idea and usually find out it was good copywriting and a disappointed.
AllanGardyne wrote:
If I'm interpreting Charlie's emoticons successfully, he scoffs at the idea that if you learn one good tip from a book, then the book was worth buying.
No, no and thrice no...
I very much dislike the use of "if you learn one good tip from a book, then the book was worth buying" type phraseology. The emoticon chain was meant to indicate my emotional reaction on discovering one (in the wild)...
Even though I have seen it hundreds of times, the psychology is still extremely powerful. Like being handed an envelope we are almost sure is empty, but still feeling compelled to look inside just in case it isn't. (This is not a comment related to Joel's book. I haven't read it.)
I use this to express "enlightenment" not represented by a lightbulb. It has a hint of "blimey" about it. (Don't ask me to explain "blimey"; I want it on my headstone - but not just yet, thanks.)
In this case, I was crying at yet another "safari sighting" as much as anything. Crying with frustration, perhaps.
The whole point is, have you ever bought a book that you didn't get at least one idea from? I know I haven't. The statement is hard to defend against for the simple reason that associations work in mysterious ways...
I don't need to buy marketing books to get marketing ideas, and I doubt you do either. If you do, you're trying too hard. (It's an alpha waves thing.)
Quote:
To me, the truth of that statement - especially when it concerns AdSense revenue where one small, simple change can have a big impact on your earnings - is so darn obvious there's nothing to debate
As long as you don't expect a simple change to have the same effect on two different web sites, I agree completely.
I'll probably buy Joel's book myself, but it won't be because I'm looking for any more ideas to justify my actions. Simply because I have gradually exposed a few features that interest me (based on my knowledge of what is a benefit to me.)
If that makes the copywriters cry with frustation, so be it.
All the best,
Charlie.
P.S.
Phil Tanny wrote:
Could someone please tell me where I can download a free emoticon reader???
Not one that takes into account the personality of the writer. Without that, emoticons are often worse than "just" words...
Blimey. _________________ "Before I speak, I have something important to say."
- Groucho Marx
Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:14 pm Post subject:
Charlie wrote:
I very much dislike the use of "if you learn one good tip from a book, then the book was worth buying" type phraseology. The emoticon chain was meant to indicate my emotional reaction on discovering one (in the wild)...
Well Charlie, I hope you're not planning on keeping this up, because I can tell you on behalf of the board that we're fed up with the "weirdo minority" who pick on the poor copywriters.
But seriously, as a proud member of that weirdo minority, I'm not sure that particular pitch is so far off.
If you really do get a good tip, and you really do implement it, and you really do make the cost of the book back and then some on a regular basis, then isn't that a profit? _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
Your visitors will build your site for you.
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I very much dislike the use of "if you learn one good tip from a book, then the book was worth buying" type phraseology. The emoticon chain was meant to indicate my emotional reaction on discovering one (in the wild)...
Sorry you may have meant it that way but I read the "faces" differently then you intended -- I think!
Most of the stuff is not always new but stimulates my brain to try new things. One of the biggest benefits in my opinion is NOW that I've read what someone has to say I can begin a dialogue --- that is where I "discovered" some of the gems hidden in the book I didn't see or read.
I think too many people want it handed on the "silver" platter, instead of learning and discovering new things. Sometimes it's not that it's something new but you were NOW READY to start implementing it because it now made sense. The little kick in the pants made the purchase worth it.
Now let me put my "publisher's hat on"... Refunds are part of the "Price" in selling on the net and electronic information especially. If someone purchases an ebook from me and wants a refund they will be given it -- no strings attached.
However, I do believe that in order to "advance the cause" and "improve" I ask when responding to a refund request for the person to let me know -- where the product failed them? How could it be improved? Not that I'm owed one -- but really I want to deliver what you want! It's one way I learn also.
Very seldom do I ever get a response.
I had someone the other day order on of my eBooks and within 3 minutes I got an email requesting a refund because they didn't learn anything! I just have to bite my lip to not write a "heated" email to them. Not for the refund but the total lack of giving the product a serious read.
I guess from a publisher's point of view here's what I would ask of you all. If you purchase an eBook or whatever and it doesn't meet your expectations --- please ask for a refund --- but give some feedback to the creator of the product. Tell them where it failed in your opinion. It's the only way they can improve it.
All the Best, _________________ Gary
- ONE is to small of a number to be a success!
Learn HOW TO create targeted, focused Content for your website!--> http://webcontenttips.com - Join Our Weekly Newsletter
Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject:
speedguide wrote:
Very seldom do I ever get a response.
I can sympathize with that Gary. Regrettably, sometimes the anonymous nature of the Net empowers us to be our less enlightened selves. Interestingly (maybe) I notice that most of the constructive feedback and supportive emails I get are either from women, or from outside of the US specifically, and outside of western culture more generally.
Luckily, not everybody has "caught up" to us clever guy operators on the Net yet...
speedguide wrote:
I had someone the other day order on of my eBooks and within 3 minutes I got an email requesting a refund because they didn't learn anything! I just have to bite my lip to not write a "heated" email to them. Not for the refund but the total lack of giving the product a serious read.
Lip biting might be over rated. You're probably too nice of a fellow to come right out and say it, but I'd guess the buyer learned plenty from the book, they just didn't see any need to pay you for the lesson.
I know that offering a "no questions asked" guarantee boosts sales and profits, but personally I think I'd rather not if it means subsidizing such bozos. Too high a price. I'd probably mention nothing about a money back guarantee, but give one to those who sent credible, polite and helpful requests. _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
Your visitors will build your site for you.
http://Discussion-For-You.com
Lip biting might be over rated. ... but I'd guess the buyer learned plenty from the book, they just didn't see any need to pay you for the lesson.
The thing that gets me ticked more than anything is that they went in with the intension of NOT PAYING FOR IT... Heck if the person can read the thing in 3 MINUTES and not get something out of it -- so be it.... Please Please Please --- send me the link to the speed reading course so I can start reading things that fast!
I'd pay for that info!
All the Best, _________________ Gary
- ONE is to small of a number to be a success!
Learn HOW TO create targeted, focused Content for your website!--> http://webcontenttips.com - Join Our Weekly Newsletter
...if the person can read the thing in 3 MINUTES and not get something out of itt...
I'm probably not telling you anything you don't know already, but some/most/all? of those people who request refunds immediately after purchasing an ebook are simply trying to get their hands on it so they can resell it on eBay, sell it on another website, post it on a file sharing site, etc.
It's bad enough they are going to take your copyrighted material and sell it in violation of the law, when they ask for a refund afterwards it just adds insult to injury.
Fortunately, there are legal remedies for giving these folks a very bad day.
And...it opens up the opportunity for someone to develop products to prevent this type of activity. I'm working on one method myself - hopefully it will be available very soon.
Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject:
A few days ago I was brainstorming with a new friend, who does really seem like a nice fellow.
He has some interesting ideas, but in the middle of them he said,
"Hey, how about a site selling used e-books? Kinda like Napster, but with no big powerful industry guys to shoot me down."
True story, not related to or inspired by this thread.
Sigh... Hopefully I've talked him out of it. If I haven't, he'll learn why it's not a good idea the hard way I guess.
I guess the moral of this story might be that few of us are completely immune from the shyster mentality that so pervades our industry.
It's like pollution that gets in the ground water and we all wind up drinking it in one way or another.. _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
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Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 5815 Location: by the beach, Australia
Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:35 pm Post subject:
speedguide wrote:
Sometimes it's not that it's something new but you were NOW READY to start implementing it because it now made sense. The little kick in the pants made the purchase worth it.
Exactly. That's how it often works for me, anyway.
I read Joel's advice of URL colors and this time for some reason I actually took action on it. I'd probably read similar advice elsewhere, but perhaps it wasn't explained in a way which made me understand how important this tip could be.
Something about the simple, straightforward way Joel explained it made it click in my brain this time.
He made it sound so easy to do - and of course it is. So I went straight to one of my sites and changed all the AdSense ads in one section - one channel - following his instructions. I even took notes!
Now I'll be watching with interest over the next week or so to see if the change makes any difference to my click-through rates and earnings.
You can probably do this without buying the book, but the book certainly made the difference to me - it encouraged me to take action. _________________ Allan Gardyne
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Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject:
AllanGardyne wrote:
You can probably do this without buying the book, but the book certainly made the difference to me - it encouraged me to take action.
What helps me is concise summaries like your 18 Step Affiliate Tutorial.
It's good at some point to read a lot of books, learn the terminology and major issues etc. But after awhile buying more ebooks tends to clog your mind with more and more stuff you don't have time to do.
I'm going through the mountain of stuff I've collected and trying to boil it all down to a dozen pages or so, something I can't get my mind around, and actually do on a regular basis. _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
Your visitors will build your site for you.
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Well Charlie, I hope you're not planning on keeping this up, because I can tell you on behalf of the board that we're fed up with the "weirdo minority" who pick on the poor copywriters.
Picking on them? I'm helping them learn to write for "people like me". What could be more helpful than that?
Quote:
If you really do get a good tip, and you really do implement it, and you really do make the cost of the book back and then some on a regular basis, then isn't that a profit?
As one "proud weirdo" to another, yes of course it is.
I just object to the psychological ploy (so much that I'm perpetuating a thread that presells the book).
speedguide wrote:
Most of the stuff is not always new but stimulates my brain to try new things. One of the biggest benefits in my opinion is NOW that I've read what someone has to say I can begin a dialogue --- that is where I "discovered" some of the gems hidden in the book I didn't see or read.
I agree that reading stimulates the brain, but does it really matter what? If it does, I bet you can't tell me how!
I was once walking down the street when one of those (quaintish) red buses we have over here drove by, which reminded me of a dream (reassuringly nothing to do with buses) which made me have an idea that earned me money.
I don't think any of us need to be told where to find ideas - only to be helped in stopping blocking them. And I'm a left brainer, so it's probably easy for most of you.
Phil Tanny wrote:
I know that offering a "no questions asked" guarantee boosts sales and profits, but personally I think I'd rather not if it means subsidizing such bozos. Too high a price. I'd probably mention nothing about a money back guarantee, but give one to those who sent credible, polite and helpful requests.
The trouble is getting "the ClickBanks of this world" to see things the same way. It's the bad side of having consumer protection with credit cards. Having to return a physical product is enough of a deterrant to keep things sensible. No joy with ebooks.
AllanGardyne wrote:
I read Joel's advice of URL colors and this time for some reason I actually took action on it. I'd probably read similar advice elsewhere, but perhaps it wasn't explained in a way which made me understand how important this tip could be.
You should try preselling...
Oops, sorry, didn't notice it was you, Allan.
Seriously, I have no objection to people getting ideas from books. Just the opposite. But if I go on safari, I want to creep up on the animals, rather than have them come to me for food.
Allan's point about probably having read similar advice elsewhere, is interesting...
Who says it was the words Joel used, as opposed to what Allan was thinking (or seeing around him) when his head was pointed at the book that led to the message getting through? Also, unique experience?
More for the cauldron.
Cheers,
Charlie. _________________ "Before I speak, I have something important to say."
- Groucho Marx
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But my point is the impression is given that the way to get ahead is to use gimmicks and break rules.
and I don't want to.
