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Phil Tanny · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:38 pm Post subject: Your advice?

Hi guys and gals,

I have a promotion idea for my site that I'm hoping you might offer your opinion on.

The keywords site in my sig is an alternate interface to the Overture search suggestion tool, with a few convenience features added.

The results are emailed to users, so an email list is built as people use the tool.

If Overture used my interface to their tool, they'd be building a large list of prospects they could sell pay per click accounts to. Plus they'd be offering, imho, a somewhat more useful keyword tool, which could lead to more users, a bigger list, more sales etc.

So the question is, should I approach Overture for a partnership?

Here's a poll question. Which outcome is more likely?

1) I create a mutually beneficial partnership with Overture.

2) Overture says, "Ah-ha! here's somebody else using our resources, let's immediately block them." and thus the whole site goes dead, and nobody gets nuthin...

My goal in such arrangement would be to introduce my links site (in sig) to all the webmasters who use Overture's tool.

My best guess is that if I was able to sell Overture on the idea, they would tell their own programmers to implement it, leaving me out in the cold holding a dead site.

On the other hand, if I succeed in getting a lot of users to my tool, that will probably happen sooner or later anyway?

My tool is totally dependant on Overture, so maybe the only good long term plan is to try to partner?

Any advice or thoughtage is most welcome and appreciated.
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edburdo · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:

Personally, I'd try to partner. But you need to make it sound good to them, yet convince them to partner with you, and not just drop you.

Any ideas on what you'd offer yet?
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dcristo · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject:

What's stopping Overture from simply prompting users to enter an email address like WordTracker does to capture emails?

Phil Tanny · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject:

Superpreneurs.com · **Joined**: 06 Oct 2004 **Posts**: 146

Sounds great. Only problem I can see is you sound desperate. When you say "I'll support, manage, and PAY for the whole thing". I think you and Overture should first define who's getting what, and as THEY are getting the list, I think they're benefiting a LOT more...

Make sure your keyword tool is really cool (better than Overture's) and see an attourney about the intellectual property side of it...

Basically it's all about power negotiating. If you look desperate they'll take you for a ride, maybe.

-Dan
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Phil Tanny · Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:52 am Post subject:

Thanks Dan. I hear what you're saying about negotiating. It seems the reality here is that while it's possible for Overture to duplicate my interface, it's not possible for me to duplicate their keyword database. My tool is dependant upon theirs. I'm not really in a power negotiating position.

I'm not really proposing doing any more than what I'm already doing, managing my own site, tho hopefully I'd be doing that for a lot more people, which is my goal anyway.

I'd still have access to the list, because if I'm going to manage, support and improve this setup etc it would have to be on my server.

What I would get is a list much larger than anything I could create on my own, plus a ton of new traffic to my site, at no cost to me. Overture would get a larger list than the one they are currently building, which is none.

I'm not desperate, but I'm trying to deal with the reality I anticipate encountering, which is that it's not unusual for folks to not even reply to your mail when you write to buy from them, partner with them, give them free stuff, etc.

I'm trying to think ahead and imagine what might cause them to toss this email in the trash.

Imagine you have one of the best known keyword tools on the Net, and I make this offer to you. What's your first reaction?

Thanks guys!
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Superpreneurs.com · **Joined**: 06 Oct 2004 **Posts**: 146

Phil,

I get what you're saying - but here's a story.

If you remember Mastery TV (I THINK it's still around), I got into it at its launch. The only good thing on there was about power negotiating.

Basically, your stance is in the eye of the beholder. You need to be firm but flexible, like a... <insert Chinese symbolism>.

So map out CLEARLY what you want to do, what the terms will be, etc etc - and STICK BY YOUR GUNS until you get to a negotiating state with the decision-maker.

Post your DETAILED plan here and we'll go over it - alternatively email me or catch me on MSN (I'll rarely off) - daniel AT superpreneurs DOT com (I'll assume you're bright enough to make that into an email addy Wink

)

The final piece of advice I will give is not to give up. With a big company like Overture, here's what I would suggest:

Make sure your plan is ULTRA detailed, get legal advice on it, set up the relative intellectual protection etc

Test it with a test group (we'll prolly volunteer) - the FINAL VERSION mind - to make SURE it is 100% awesome. Gather testimonials from heavy hitters (like Allan, the Warrior Forum would get you some powerful guys too).

Once you've done all that and you know the program is a winner, go to Overture and basically don't take no for an answer until they threaten you with a restraining order Very Happy

That's my two cents anyway, guys like Allan probably know more but in my admittedly limited dealings with BIG corporations I find it's best to make SURE you have a winner - and can prove it - that way, you have a major bargaining power. You've just got to explain to them how much they'll be missing out on if they don't take you up on it.

Even settle for a trial of your service (you need a contract for this, get a good lawyer/attourney/extra terrestial).

-Dan
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The above message is probably completely harsh and tactless; I don't have time to hold your hand if you ask for help. I give it straight. Hang in there, work hard, and you'll get there though!

Phil Tanny · Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:58 pm Post subject:

Hi Dan,

OK, I see what you're saying. I really don't disagree, you're right, that would be the professional way to approach this.

Before I do everything you suggest, I have to make a judgement as to the chances that the significant investment of time and energy involved in creating the pitch (hiring lawyers etc) will be rewarded.

Best guess for now is that my offer is not awesome enough to get the attention of a corporate culture, but I'm trying to keep my mind open.

Thanks!
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Charlie · **Joined**: 22 Aug 2003 **Posts**: 3305 **Location**: UK

AllanGardyne · Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:28 pm Post subject:

I doubt if email would do the trick. I think you'd need to follow up with phone calls and get an appointment to see someone at Overture in person with a written proposal and perhaps stuff on a CD. You'd need to leave something with them that looked good.
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Phil Tanny · Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:42 pm Post subject:

Thanks guys,

I agree email wouldn't work, we can cross that off the list.

If you're not bored with this yet:

Have I explained my offer sufficiently that you understand the proposal?

If yes, do you feel what I'm putting on the table is useful to Overture and their users? Useful enough to merit Overture's time?

If Overture were to route their keyword searches through my interface by some arrangement or another, do you see significant benefit for me?
My impression is that many people still use this tool, inspite of it's limitations. Is that your impression?

We all agree that Overture would likely make me jump through a number of hoops in order to give them and their users this free service on a silver platter. Is it worth it, for me? Should I bother?

Thanks to Charlie for shoving the JV concept in to my little brain. I'm wondering if JV works in general, or in this specific case.

Appreciate it!
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AllanGardyne · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:48 am Post subject:

I don't trust Overture's figures and I wouldn't want to get deeply involved in a project which used Overture figures as the basis of all the calculations. I think you could find more satisfying things to do.

Overture is useful for finding quick new ideas, not for use in building a serious business framework, I reckon.
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Phil Tanny · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:57 am Post subject:

Hi Allan,

Yes, I hear you. I'm afraid my various posts on keywords have muddied the waters. I'll try to clear things up.

I am working on a Keywords Analyzer that has the same interface as my Keywords Organizer. Both programs do look the same.

However, the Analzyer no longer uses Overture data, thanks to input from this group, Allan especially. I agree, the Analyzer needs better data, ie. Wordtracker data. That's what it now uses.

The Keyword Organizer I am referring to here in this thread is NOT an analyzer, nor is it adverised as such. It's a brainstormer only, exactly like Overture's tool. The search totals are there for those that want them, but they are not crucial to brainstorming.

The point is that although the Overture tool has serious limitations as a analyzer, lots of people use it because it is a free, very easy way to quickly (when it's working!) generate a list of idea generating keywords. No software to buy or install, no interface to learn, no thinking, true ease of use.

For the sake of discussion, it might help clarify this thread to throw Overture's search numbers out the window completely.

Overture's tool, limited as it is, must have value to some webmasters or the Overture Search Suggestion Tool would have long ago disapeared from the landscape. Right?

Perhaps this question will clarify my interest in this topic.

Would you like to have a link to your home page on the Overture Search Suggestion Tool page? Would you like to have all Overture Search Suggestion Tool traffic redirected to your domain?

Sorry, my fault, I have two almost identical looking, but different functioning, programs under discussion here on this board at the same time. I can see where that would be confusing.

The Organizer is up and running with real users now, the Analyzer is still under development behind the scenes.
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