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AllanGardyne
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MakeMoney
Joined:
21 Jul 2004
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119
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:56 am
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Ok, thanks Allan.
Personally, I believe any and all repeat sales and affiliate commissions should be compensated as they occur without any need to reach a first person sales quota or quota of any sort.
Best and happy new year to all,
MM |
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W Paul Blakey
Joined:
21 Sep 2004
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10
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Sechelt, BC, Canada
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2005 6:54 pm
Post subject: Helping out...
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| MakeMoney wrote: | So, just making sure I completely understand this....
Say you make a small sale in a one month period and that sale turns into a bigger sale (as they often do) a few months later. Do I lose a chance at commissions on the bigger sale if I make no first person sales during the month of the posting of the second sale?
Thanks,
MM |
Your commissions as potential do not disappear, but until you make another new customer sale, you do not receive anything. There seems to be no limit on the amount of time your repeat sales commissions can build up.
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Paul Blakey
http://www.selfpublishersclub.com |
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jlc
Joined:
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11
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:46 am
Post subject: reply to Mr. Gardyne - perhaps not an all or nothing issue
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Mr. Gardyne,
Thanks for your reply. I hope you'll still see this post at this point.
I a former product owner and affiliate program member of the company in question, so I was not basing my comments on Mr. Blakey's posts alone.
Some final comments to a spirited debate:
First and foremost, - It should not take a 600-page manual and people with a degree in applied mathematics to figure out the basics of a commission system. If it does, that's a poor reflection on the relevant company, not the unfortunate affiliate that can't figure out the vague warnings in the 600-page manual.
Changing a Commission System Radically
1)I stand by my assertion that radically changing a commission structure has significant legal and ethical implications that a professional company should not treat so cavalierly. Last year, Mr. Blakey generated business believing that he'd be paid a commission under a structure that took into consideration both his repeat sales and first-time sales. When it came time to pay-out that commission (a year later), that company refused to honor its original agreement with Mr. Blakey. Instead it insisted that he accept payment under a significantly less favorable commission system (for him) if ever wanted to be paid again at all.
While I did not generate business directly last year as an affiliate, I was theoretically put in the same position as Mr. Blakey when this company unexpectedly changed its commission structure without grandfathering in people who signed up under the original agreement.
Do I have the facts straight?
If so, if the above isn't a breach-of-contract issue, I don't know what is. And I truly suspect some attorneys would agree with me.
Commission System is Convoluted and Illogical
2) If Mr. Blakey doesn't understand the commission system, perhaps that's because the commission system has always been convoluted and difficult to understand. Now it seems convoluted, difficult to understand, and illogical. Under the new "first-time sales are all important" system, I could sell someone a $40 ebook and be paid a $10 commission this month. Next month, I could then facilitate a "repeat-sale" by the same customer of a one-year $495 subscription to a product, and I would be paid a $0 dollar commision until I made a new first-time sale.
Does it make any sense to give people a $0 commission for making a $450 upsell? Yes, in theory if I make another approx. $500 first-time sale each and every month for the rest of my life, I can be paid a full residual commission on repeat sales consistently. But I suspect a fraction of 1 percent of affiliates make $500 in first-time sales a month. So for all practical purposes, this new system represents an ongoing commission sales job that pays a modest one-time commission on most products for all but the highest performing associates.
I have yet to see anyone argue that the new commission structure is a good deal for affiliates. It's obviously a less favorable deal for affiliates, but this new system is good for the company precisely because it doesn't generate lifetime commissions for most people.
If most web hosting/consulting services paid out commissions in such a peculiar fashion, that would be one thing. But most web hosting companies pay residual commissions for the life of the web hosting account irrespective of whether or not an affiliate brings them new business.
Professionals Will Look for a Better Deal
The company has said it made changes to its commission system because it did not want to attract the get-rich-quick crowd. However, ironically, I think the peculiarity and fundamental unfairness of this new commission system will be a turn-off to most professional business owners.
Do we really think that talented people will be inspired to make more sales when they get a $0 commission on a $495 product one month because they couldn't make a first-time sale fast enough? I think they'll bail and take their talents to a web-hosting service that can offer them a better less-convoluted deal. The issue is not whether or not a program is "fair" philosophically-speaking, but whether or not it is competitive when compared to similar affiliate programs for similar products. In this case, the answer is clearly no.
That being said, Mr. Gardyne, I do appreciate your williness to entertain honest debate here despite your personal relationship with the company in question.
I consider you a model e-business leader and hope I can imitate your business practices in my own career.
Also, I'm not expecting a response, but I do hope you can convince the powers- that-be to at least consider the points made here and elsewhere in this forum as they go into the New Year.
Perhaps this issue is not as "all or nothing" as it seems. It would be great if an individual like myself could recommend this affiliate program even if I am not interested in participating in it.
But to do that, I'd have to be convinced the program I was recommending treated affiliates in a consistently professional manner and honestly considered constructive feedback. So far, I've seen little but an extremely defensive response to an understandably controversial issue.
Janna |
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AllanGardyne
Site Admin
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:39 am
Post subject: Re: reply to Mr. Gardyne - perhaps not an all or nothing iss
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Janna, I'm glad you don't expect a reply. I'll just correct a couple of misconceptions...
| jlc wrote: | | It should not take a 600-page manual and people with a degree in applied mathematics to figure out the basics of a commission system. |
I think you must be confusing the SBI instruction manual (which has been considerably shortened in the latest version) with The Getting Started Action Guide which affiliates are instructed to read.
The Action Guide - http://www.sitesell.com/blakey/GettingStarted.pdf - contains 79 pages, only a small proportion of which refer to the commission structure.
I'm not saying the structure isn't complex but please let's not make it sound hugely more complex than it is. 
| Quote: | | I have yet to see anyone argue that the new commission structure is a good deal for affiliates. It's obviously a less favorable deal for affiliates... |
Nope. There's no need to argue. Just look at the facts. The new system is paying about 20% MORE than the old system.
If you want the facts, I really think you should take the time to read the comprehensive discussions on the SiteSell forum. They featured a lot of probing and intelligent questioning:
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?t=1569
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?t=1666
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?p=19676&highlight=#19676
| Quote: | | Professionals Will Look for a Better Deal |
Let's see ... fantastic products, superb support for affiliates including a wonderful forum, good conversion rates, and a CEO who really cares ... If you find a better deal, please tell me about it.
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Allan Gardyne
AssociatePrograms.com - You're here. Explore it! |
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administrator
Site Admin
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Location:
Maryborough Queensland Australia
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:43 am
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Janna,
You are very misinformed if you think Paul doesn't understand English!! Regardless of Writers Club affiliations, and your apparent ignorance of the situation, this topic is dead! Allan is so polite and patient to give you a clearer picture. I'm afraid the realistic procedure would be to delete this thread.
I hope you understand now anyway.
Wally Morgan - Moderator |
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Phil Tanny
Joined:
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1324
Location:
Gainesville Florida USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:02 pm
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Another point of information regarding SiteSell policies. Here's something I was confused about, and apparently should have read more carefully.
Just before the price rise I bought a copy of SBI at $300 thinking I might use it at some point. I never did use it at all, or even register a domain. Thus I wasn't considered a real user, and couldn't access the forum, or specials. That was OK with me, I thought I had a year from the time I first used the product, so I didn't expect SiteSell to consider me a customer until I began using that year.
I recently decided I would likely never use this account, and just asked for a refund. I would have gladly paid a "restocking fee" as I put SiteSell through the trouble of opening and then closing an acccount.
But I'm now informed a refund is not available to me, whether I've used the account or not.
Before Wally spanks me (Hi Wally! ) I should rush to add that I'm not accusing SiteSell of anything. I honestly don't remember the exact terms of the "buy before we raise the price" sale, if I even read all the details of it at the time.
Like Paul, I probably should have read the terms more carefully before making my decision.
But anyway, just as Paul has helped educate us on his mistake, I'm now doing it in regards to mine. My mistake cost me $300, down the drain, all for nothing.
Read before you leap, or ye shall weep!
To ensure I won't be accused of misquoting etc, the complete exchange is included below (minus email headers):
----------------------
Hi Phil ,
Shawn here
At this time no refund is applicable.
You have a 30 day trial period in which you can ask for a 100% refund of
your money if you are not satisfied with the product. After the 30 day
trial period has passed your refund is on a pro-rata basis based on days
of use for the amount of time you purchased SBI!, i.e. full year or 1/2
year, after the one year mark or 6 month mark, you are no longer eligible
for a refund. (We do not refund based on the free months bonus since
they cost zero -- the refund is based on the 6 months or 12 months time
frame.)
As stated on the order page:
"Ask for your money back anytime. SiteSell.com will refund you 100% within
the first 30 days of purchase, and on a pro-rata basis after that, for
whatever part of the year remains. "
https://secure.sitesell.com/build/Guarantee-Teeth/Guarantee.html
You purchased your order of SBI on November 6 2003 With it was a 12 month Subscription and an additional 3 months of free service. The initial 12 months expired on November 6th 2004. The additional 3 free months expire on Feb 6th 2005 At this time no refund applies.
Best regards,
Shawn Ellis
SiteSell Support Team
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SiteSell/5 Pillar Support
If this e-mail needs a reply, please click upon the
"Reply-to" function in your e-mail software. This keeps the
Reference# in the subject, which is critical -- if the
Reference# falls from the subject, your mail will be lost
because our filters will assume it is spam and DELETE IT.
Also, please keep the entire thread in your reply, so I can
help you faster by following the thread quickly.
----------------------SIDEBAR FROM KEN----------------------
SiteSell support tries its hardest. If you are not satisfied
with the level of support, I would like to hear about it
personally. If you are DELIGHTED with the support, I would
also love to hear about it. And either way, please let me
know which support person you dealt with, and please include
the entire thread or a summary of it.
Generally, our turnaround time is 4-6 hours during the day/
early evening, 12 hours overnight (ET). So if you don't
hear back in those time spans, please let me know.
I have set up a special e-mail box specifically and only to
hear your feedback about customer support. Let me know...
[Email address deleted. Admin.]
------------------------------------------------------------
Filtering software may prevent you from receiving important
SiteSell e-mail or e-zines. To ensure that you never miss
an e-mail from us, follow these tips...
http://www.sitesell.com/whitelisting.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Hi,
I've never used my account, and it appears I probably won't. Could you possibly do a refund?
If I change my mind later then of course I'll have to pay the new full price, I understand that.
Thank you!
Phil
---------------
Dear Phil,
Your Order Number 1031106152307796 subscription to Site Build It!
expires on Feb 06, 2005.
Don't worry!
It's easy to renew. Please go to...
https://secure.sitesell.com/prot-bin/build/order-renewal.pl?o=1031106152307796
After renewing, your SBI! subscription will extend to...
Feb 06, 2006
The value of SBI! is currently over $5,000, and growing...
http://buildit.sitesell.com/sbi-businesses/value-renewal.html
Save thousands AND build a site that WORKS.
I wish you evergrowing success... beyond your expectations!
All the best,
Ken Evoy
President, SiteSell.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is an automated message, OUTgoing only. Please do not
reply to this e-mail, since a computer program automatically
deletes replies -- this prevents endless loops. Instead...
Questions? Contact SiteSell Support...
http://support.sitesell.com/contact-support.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[Masses of excessive spacing deleted. Admin.]
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Debbi
Joined:
20 Nov 2003
Posts:
259
Location:
USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 9:33 pm
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If you bought a "beat the price increase" SBI around Oct 2003, the promotion stated that you could wait as long as you wanted before using the subscription. I just had the same issue, and thanks to some clarification Ken made on the SBI forum, Christian cleared it up with me rather nicely (and over the holiday weekend, no less!  Can't beat that!)
The link for that thread is:
http://forums.sitesell.com/viewtopic.php?t=927
If you ordered in that time period, you don't have to renew until 12 months after you activate the order #. I remember the buzz back then. It was hard to resist! The idea was to buy as many as we could afford before the price increase, so we'd lock in that renewal rate forever for that site. One way to persuade people to buy more was to let us wait as long as we needed to to start using it. I wanted to buy even more, but one was all I could afford!
You will probably need to reference that forum thread and make sure the date of purchase was in the time period right before the price increase. (I don't remember the exact dates, but I believe Ken gives them in that thread. My purchase date was Oct. 22, 2003, for example.)
The refund window is long past, yes. But you may want reconsider tossing it. Why not keep that SBI on the shelf and use it later, like the offer promised? What harm is there? The only hassle is getting a subscription you're not using yet extended once a year (if necessary) until you use it. After all, you paid for it, didn't you? Seems a pity to let it go to waste....
Hope this helps,
Debbi
P.S. Just want to be clear for anyone else who isn't sure: normally, your SBI subscription IS only good for 12 months from the date of purchase. But there were a coulple of times Ken's promotions promised "Buy Now - Use Whenever" under which these terms apply. If you're not certain, be sure to read the thread I posted, especially Ken's posts, so you will be sure before you contact support needlessly.
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RIGHT is still RIGHT, even if no-one else is doing it....
WRONG is still WRONG, even if everyone else is doing it.... |
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Phil Tanny
Joined:
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1324
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Gainesville Florida USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:43 pm
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Many thanks for your input Debbi.
Yes, I agree with your description of the situation.
What's happening is that while SiteSell told us at the time of purchase that our year wouldn't start until we began to use the account, they are now sending "your account is about to expire" notices.
My read is that this isn't some calculated scheme, but is rather simply an example of what has been referred to throughout this thread. Things are sometimes complicated enough at SiteSell that even SiteSell themselves have trouble keeping track of what is going on. The support person I dealt with seemed to have no knowledge of this sale offer.
He did however extend my account as originally promised. It seemed he felt he was doing me a personal favor, I didn't get the idea he realized SiteSell was billing people who shouldn't yet be billed. Or it's policy not to admit such things perhaps, I couldn't say.
A refund after a year was never part of the deal and I've accepted that without complaint.
I want to emphasize, for the sake of those who might not be reading carefully, that SiteSell is honoring it's original agreement with me, albeit somewhat clumsily.
My little boring story underlines what has been, for me at least, the point behind this entire thread. SiteSell is an honorable company, but they seem to perhaps be stumbling in to avoidable controversies. Well, which of us hasn't done that...
For reasons completely unrelated to this thread (and perhaps a few that are) SBI was probably never a good fit for me. Poor choice on my part, no fault of SBI. Clearly SBI is an excellent choice for many many people.
SiteSell has given me permission to transfer my account to another person, so I think I'm going to give the account away as part of a promotion.
Ahem, join Links-For-You now so you'll be on the list of people who will qualify to win a free SBI!
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Charlie
Joined:
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Posts:
3305
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UK
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:55 am
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Hello Phil.
| Phil Tanny wrote: | | A refund after a year was never part of the deal and I've accepted that without complaint. |
Irrespective of your case, much of the general confusion over renewals sprang from the popular misconception (mine included) that the year didn't begin until the domain was registered and full access gained.
| Quote: | | SiteSell is an honorable company, but they seem to perhaps be stumbling in to avoidable controversies. Well, which of us hasn't done that... |
Sorry - perhaps I'm just the exception that proves the rule! 
Seriously, regarding companies, these days I prefer to dodge generalisations and realise that they are just collections of people. I get on much better with some than others...
It's all too easy to blame the puppet master when not all the puppets dance to the same tune (or the same standard).
| Quote: | | For reasons completely unrelated to this thread (and perhaps a few that are) SBI was probably never a good fit for me. Poor choice on my part, no fault of SBI. |
I'm guessing that someone like you, Phil, is going to find that glass partition between server and client side more of a problem than most. But SBI is sold hard as a solution for just about everyone, so you have some defence.
But where's your stubborn fight...
| Quote: | | SiteSell has given me permission to transfer my account to another person, so I think I'm going to give the account away as part of a promotion. |
I wondered about that angle a while ago, but it would have been too easy - I like a challenge.
Mine's been sitting on the shelf for over 2 years and was recently renewed. It has often annoyed me that paid up customers don't get full access to the various resources (without a domain), but if you join the 5 Pillar Program you can lurk in the full SBI Forums (even if posting is restricted).
Actually, that's the one worry I have about going the SBI route. I spend too much time posting here already, and the thought of "unrestricted access" in SBI is a bit worrying, though I often think things could do with a little livening up.
We have quite a few friends there after all.
Cheers,
Charlie.
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Phil Tanny
Joined:
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1324
Location:
Gainesville Florida USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:47 pm
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| Charlie wrote: | Seriously, regarding companies, these days I prefer to dodge generalisations and realise that they are just collections of people. I get on much better with some than others...
It's all too easy to blame the puppet master when not all the puppets dance to the same tune (or the same standard).
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The puppet masters job is to ensure all the puppets sing the same correct tune. Responsibility always lies with management, whatever the credit or blame, that's their job, taking the responsibility.
Companies mirror and amplify the strengths and weaknesses of the owner to an amazing degree.
I had a young friend who dropped out of college to start what is now a quite successful net biz with at least dozens of employees. I rented office space and bandwidth from him and watched his business develop from the "office in my bedroom" stage to a real company. The whole enterprise wound up being his strengths and weaknesses, multiplied by dozens of people. Very interesting sociology, and quite scary if you are the owner.
Imagine a whole building full of people doing the Professor Blowhard thing of mine. You'd have to call out the National Guard! Too scary to contemplate!!
Anyway, Prof B is wandering way off topic now...
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Charlie
Joined:
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Posts:
3305
Location:
UK
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:41 pm
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| Phil Tanny wrote: | | The puppet masters job is to ensure all the puppets sing the same correct tune. Responsibility always lies with management, whatever the credit or blame, that's their job, taking the responsibility. |
In the case of this particular puppet master, it's the leadership and philosophy I like to concentrate on more than the management.
| Quote: | | Companies mirror and amplify the strengths and weaknesses of the owner to an amazing degree. |
That's debatable, but they are encouraged to act the part, at least. As far as taking on the boss's values and standards, I'm not so sure.
| Quote: | | I rented office space and bandwidth from him and watched his business develop from the "office in my bedroom" stage to a real company. |
If your wife might object to a page about **** beaches, what the heck did she have to say about that? I'm surprised you're still married at all. 
| Quote: | | Imagine a whole building full of people doing the Professor Blowhard thing of mine. |
I think they call it a conference...
| Quote: | | You'd have to call out the National Guard! Too scary to contemplate!! |
You're right there. I'd go for the regular army.
| Quote: | | Anyway, Prof B is wandering way off topic now... |
Thanks, I've enjoyed it.
Cheers,
Charlie.
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administrator
Site Admin
Joined:
02 Jul 2003
Posts:
1472
Location:
Maryborough Queensland Australia
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:25 pm
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I'm in a bit of a quandary here, folks. This topic has in part degenerated into character assassination again as with another recent one.
It is fine to state the facts about the problem and its resolution or otherwise but snide suggestions about blame, etc., verges on libel ... not to be recommended!
Quoting personal letters can sometimes be considered a very rude practice. Referring to the content of same is probably more acceptable.
Please conduct your discussion "politely", even if upset, and state the facts without innuendos that cloud the issue.
I would be happy if a couple of letters were editied along those lines. I did inially want to do so as Moderator but I can see where you, the writers are coming from but I also hope you see my point of view.
Regards,
Wally Morgan - Moderator |
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Phil Tanny
Joined:
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Posts:
1324
Location:
Gainesville Florida USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:49 pm
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Hi Wally,
Character assasination? Not sure I follow, but maybe if you quoted examples I might.
In any case, this thread seems to really bug you. I wouldn't object if you rewarded your hard work as moderator and indulged in one of the perks, and followed through on your obvious desire to delete this whole topic. Can't speak for anybody else, but that'd be OK with me.
You deserve some fun once in awhile for all you do to keep this place nice for all of us.
It's Friday afternoon, put your feet on the desk, pop open that beer, pause for effect, and then jam down that delete button! Ah!
If you're not going to drink the rest of that 6 pack, pass one over here wouldya?
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Debs
Joined:
16 Aug 2003
Posts:
4296
Location:
NY
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:18 pm
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| Quote: | | paid up customers don't get full access to the various resources (without a domain), but if you join the 5 Pillar Program you can lurk in the full SBI Forums (even if posting is restricted). |
Just to clarify, you do get full access to the forums upon purchase of SBI, you can contact support via the online form to ask how it's done (I don't know the "how" you have to log in but know it is done). There are a lot of "Joe from whereever (no domain yet)" posters who have full access on the Sitesell forums.
Debs
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