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mikeherman
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135
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California
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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:05 am
Post subject: HTML Validators
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I've run HTML validators to review pages, but 95% of the errors they find aren't errors.
Or if they are, it doesn't make sense to me.
Errors such as <br />, "unrecognized, & <***> and it will say the < is missing, "I can see it so what is wrong"? or <script>... then the script from Google AdSense which I had cut and pasted, but the validator says it is incorrect, etc.
There were a few things like a </font>, </strong>, </span>, which were not needed, so I got rid of them.
Of the 60 or so reported errors on a page, 95% seems to just be "gobbldy gook".
What are your thoughts?
Anyone else run HTML Validators?
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Debs
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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:25 am
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In most cases they work, and work well ... sometimes an error at line 47 can cause an error to report at line 12 ... that's why it's important to understand HTML
as far as your <br /> ... it should be recognized if you are using the correct doctype ... if you aren't, then it shouldn't be used. If you are doing both (the correct doctype and <br /> and it calls an error, find another validator.
The thing about errors and/or warnings (some validators give both), is the more you have, the slower your page loads as the browser tries to figure out what's the correct or best way to render your page. Also, some errors can actually cause an SE spider to backout of the page and not index it ... which can be a real problem in spiders reaching other pages in your site, not to mention the page it backed out of.
When Google first issued its Adsense code it was incorrect, it has now been fixed ... I've had no problems getting the new code to validate.
Debs
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edburdo
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Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:13 pm
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I validate both my xHTML and my CSS. I usually use either FireFox (has some nice development extensions) or the W3C to validate.
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Eric D. Burdo
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Charlie
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Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:10 pm
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All this talk about validators reminds me of compilers (when I last used them properly, about 20 years ago) - fussy blighters...
One tiny technical innaccuracy often leads to a string of others. Fix one and many more disappear.
| Debs wrote: | | some errors can actually cause an SE spider to backout of the page and not index it ... which can be a real problem in spiders reaching other pages in your site, not to mention the page it backed out of. |
I suspect my HTML probably isn't perfect, but I've never had any problems with the SE engines (but then maybe I wouldn't know if I had). I still start with a simple home made template and type the lot in notepad then save and upload (after checking locally).
To be honest, I wonder if validators are overkill. If the page displays "how it's supposed to", that'll do for me.
It's much the same with "non-standard" html. Half the web is written in it, and browsers are always likely to interpret it, whatever the W3C says.
Just my opinion,
Charlie.
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webcoder82
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studioeurope
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radhika
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:49 pm
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| Quote: | I've run HTML validators to review pages, but 95% of the errors they find aren't errors.
Or if they are, it doesn't make sense to me. |
Same my experience way back in 2001. Few months I bangged my head to make work, but I stopped using them.
Now I just see the website in different browsers (like IE, Netscape, Firefox .. etc) to make sure they display OK. Thats it!
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Andrea Thomson
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Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:48 pm
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I think it was a newsletter from Michael Campbell back in November 2004(?) that said we should pay attention to w3.org standards. As frustrating as that can be sometimes -
It was becoming increasingly important to ensure you declare the document type in all html pages - the SEO's are reading this.
I think of it as a simple analogy - if I travel abroad and try to communicate in another language, some people may be patient with me and try to undestand what I'm saying. Now, based on what Michael is saying, those same people (in this case the SEO's) are basically saying, "hey I don't understand you" and it may impact how they read our pages.
If anyone still has a copy of this newsletter, please share - I'm still looking 
On that topic - how important do you think this is to the SE's?
I'm not talking little things like <font> tags... I mean - how important do you think it is to have a page/template the SE's can read easily?
curious 
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Andrea Thomson
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edburdo
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Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:42 am
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How important?
Very. My guess is that the easier a SE bot can read your site, the better the chances are that they will be back.
I always validate my sites... I may not always publish a validated site, but I always try to validate.
A big part of validation is making sure you have the right headers. I was recently working on a website for work (written in ASP.net from Visual Studio). I kep trying to make the site XHTML Transitional... it wouldn't validate. I then found out why. Visual Studio 2003 isn't capable of producing XHTML validated code (or any sort). So I had to go back to HTML 4.01 and use that.
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Eric D. Burdo
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Andrea Thomson
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Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:42 pm
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Thanks Eric
How important do you think it is to have a page/template the SE's can read easily?
| Quote: | | Very. My guess is that the easier a SE bot can read your site, the better the chances are that they will be back. |
A fellow called me recently - he going to build his first affiliate site (using James Martell's methods) and he's convinced that any-old template will do the same job. He says it makes no difference to how the SE's read the page(s) of his site. Gee, what can I say ? I tried, but there was no telling him 
Think your approach is good, Eric - sounds like you focus on the important fixes and get the page up.
Trouble is, I know that you're really experienced and unfortunately ( for other this guy anyhow) most new people wouldn't know what to look for in terms of errors & corrections 
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Andrea Thomson
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edburdo
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:38 am
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It's hard these days. My first goal is to make sure the site looks correct in ALL major browsers. This means IE 5.5, IE6, Firefox, Mozilla, Opera, Safar and then a few Linux browsers (if design for Firefox, you can almost guarantee everything but IE will display correctly). IE is a quirky browser, so it can be tricky to make things look right... but they still have the market share (80% depending on the country).
After I make sure the site looks good... then I work on validating. You'd be surprised how many times the site validates with minor tweaks if I build it to work in FF.
I keep my layouts simple enough that they work in IE easily enough... I just avoid the fancy stuff...
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Eric D. Burdo
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Andrea Thomson
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Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:18 pm
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| Quote: | | if design for Firefox, you can almost guarantee everything but IE will display correctly |
Yup - that's what I find too!
When FireFox works, you pretty much know you have Safari, Opera, etc - unless you're doing something extraordinary. But there's always that moment where I almost have to look away when IE comes on the screen
I don't know why I smile because it' really irratating - hence, I understand why some people just avoid validating altogether. I think they just give up because there are so many other tasks to perform in their business.
One word solution : outsource 
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Andrea Thomson
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Charlie
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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:21 am
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| Andrea Thomson wrote: | | But there's always that moment where I almost have to look away when IE comes on the screen |
Well I still run IE 5.5, so it gets a bit tedious.
And regularly ugly - a great deal of CSS does not work on IE5.5/Win95. Graphics overlapping text is common.
Leaving aside validation for SE complance, I can't help but think we're moving too much towards pretty for pretty's sake. (Not me personally you understand.)
It's the same old circle. The more complicated you make something, the more people stretch it - pushing for more features to be introduced. Note I said features, not benefits.
I suppose it all depends on whether (as a surfer) you like reading or visiting something that's a cross between a dodgy art gallery and a TV programme.
And I didn't even mention download speed for dial up...
Glad I got that out of my system.
Cheers,
Charlie.
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edburdo
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Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:12 am
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You bring up a good point Charlie. That's why I tend to outsource more and more of my site design these days...
and why it is so beneficial to find a good web designer who knows standards, usability AND how style.
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Eric D. Burdo
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