Affiliate Marketing Forum

AllanGardyne · Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:25 am Post subject: Buying reciprocal links

Arranging reciprocal links with other sites is awfully time-consuming. Some companies provide this service for you. They contact other web sites and arrange reciprocal links.

Judging by the emails I receive, some outfits are very amateurish and some are highly professional.

Have you hired such a company to arrange reciprocal links? I haven't, but the thought intrigues me.

For example, Dirk Johnson's http://www.linkstrategy.com/ will arrange reciprocal links for $6 a link, perhaps more or perhaps less, depending on your industry. Perhaps as low as $3.50 for a bulk order in a industry in which Dirk already has connections.

I have no connection whatsoever with LinkStrategy.com, but I've read many articles by Dirk and what he writes usually seems to make a lot of sense.

I'd be very interested in any feedback.
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robertb · Joined: 09 Aug 2003 Posts: 1838 Location: Columbus, OH

I didn't see any mention on his site of the ability to be PR specific when it comes to selecting links, such as a PR 4 minimum.
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dcristo · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 471 Location: Sydney, Australia

I really can't see the value for money in that service. If you want to save yourself the time in finding backlinks, more specifically high PR backlinks, then get software to do the legwork for you such as PR Prowler. I haven't personally used it but have heard good reviews about it. It would set you back $100 USD.

dcristo · Joined: 23 Jun 2004 Posts: 471 Location: Sydney, Australia

Moreso, I would prefer to save the $6 USD they charge per reciprocal link, and put it towards buying a nice high PR one way backlink, IMO.

Phil Tanny · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:14 am Post subject:

Thanks for your post Allan. You've been a good sport in trying to help me with links, and I appreciate it.

Here's a new link management application that may be of interest. Just out today. It's free, and by Duncan Carver, an experienced marketer worth getting to know if you don't already.

http://www.onlinemarketingtoday.com/software/link-management/

I haven't checked it out yet, and so can't offer a report. Duncan says this about his new app:

"It has twice as many features as the next closest
application (at $120 per licence), is three times as user friendly and there aint no price tag."

If somebody here downloads it, perhaps you can file your report.
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linkstrategy · Guest

Hi Allan,

Thanks for the mention.

I would like to respond in depth to all these other posts, but I am on vacation this week, and headed out the hotel room door....

Very quickly...I will address the whole PR issue, from my own perspective, which is one that includes doing reciprocal link work all day, every day, for a few years. And having done it in one form or another since 1996.

In the course of that, I have also done an awful lot of link analysis work, using some self-built tools that are not available publicly.

In short, PR based linking is something that I don't do and never have done. The reasons are logical, extensive, and can be supported again and again with real-world examples, not theories.

My best advice is to treat directory-to-directory reciprocal linking as a branding function of your business, not as an SEO function. Good SERPs on Google result from doing that, combined with proper page structure. Not the other way around.

There are a ton of "myths" out there on the SEO forums related to linking. Most of them are exceptionally misguided, and actually thwart the effort to establish dominant link popularity. I will expand on this later.

There real factor inl SERPs, given tow sites with similar page optimization, is the number of unique domains that point to a site. PR is way down the list in term so importantce, so as to be irrelevant.

There are a lot of ways to get links. I suggest that savvy site owners pursue as many as pracitcal. I focus my business on directory-to-directory reciprocal linking, as that seems to be the most affordable way to establish a large number of unique domains. It is "foundation" work. And it does not generally result in many high PR links. Most links pages are PR1-2-3. But it works for getting SERPs.

But people are welcome to disagree with me. I just do what seems to work extremely well for my clients. I am not really interested in establishing that I am a guru at all of this, but I am interested in knocking down a lot of the nonsense related to linking, based on sound review of real world situations.

Best regards,

Dirk Johnson - owner
703-406-4698 Eastern USA
djohnson AT roiwebsites DOT com
Read "The Benefits of Reciprocal Linking - A Baker's Dozen Points to Ponder"
LinkStrategy.com <http://www.linkstrategy.com>

[Email address edited to try fool spam robots. Admin.]

robertb · Joined: 09 Aug 2003 Posts: 1838 Location: Columbus, OH

Honestly, I feel a lot of work is being wasted by not focusing on the middle tiers of PR (ie 4, 5, 6). If you research the actual PR values of sites (not the value Google displays, that's only an approximation) I believe that a PR 5 link is at least 10 times greater than a PR 4 link, and a PR 4 link is at least 10 times greater than a PR 3 link.

That equates to 1 PR 5 link being equal to 100 PR 3 links. While this is only a very rough approximation, you can see how your efforts would be better spent recruiting PR 5 link partners as opposed to PR 3 ones.

But then again, most people don't know this. It's quality links that count, not just ANY links.
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Linkstrategy · Guest

I don't often post in formus like this, as it deteriorates into opinion A vs opinion B vs C, etc. I am really too busy for that. It's just endless talk. Allan invited me into this, so I am taking some time to describe what I do.

Maybe I did not make myself clear in my first post, so I will try this again.

I am well aware of the PageRank formula, and how a PR 5 link is arithmetically so much better than PR 1, etc. I am not even arguing that point. I'll concede it, readily. Those who wish to focus on PR values with respect to linking should continue to doing what they believe in. My own expereience simply refutes the value of focusing on PR. I have concluded that chasing PR is really not that efficient or effective.

I will continue to do what I do, which is help my clients achieve spectacular SERPs. I could care less about PR. Most of my clients have PR on their home page of only 4 or 5, and most of the links coming to them are of the mundane PR 1 to 3 variety.

Yet they have rock-solid first place index positions for their most valuable keywords, as well as hundreds of auxiliary keyword combinations, in some very competitive markets. Many of my clients never wavered in their Google SERPs during the Florida and subsequent Google updates. They had a link foundation that was well established and recognized as such by Google. Yet I saw a lot of the high-PR chasers get clobbered. Which is one reason why I feel that chasing PR is a total waste of time, and even risky. Google can easily "see" it for what it is, along with high reciprocity rates.

The reason that sites are stable in SERPs is because they have dominant, broad-based link popularity, not just a smattering of high PR links. Do a search on fairly competitve term and look at the sites that come up first in Google. Then analyze the results by doing an in depth link-back analysis, including a unique domain analysis. Do this for a few hundred different terms in a wide variety of businesses. You will see that dominant link popularity from unique domains is the consistent and common thread for sites that rank well.

In the course of my work, I have done exactly what I describe above. I see this same scenario, over and over and over.

I am not making this up, and this is not theory. It is hard to get at this kind of data without a lot of work, so most people are never exposed to it. Even a lot of SEO gurus don't really do the in-depth link analysis that they need to support their theories. I can blow holes in most of these theories, with real world situations.

I am not bragging. I am just really tired of reading the endless stream of theory that is put out there, while it is consistently refuted by the circumstances of my own clients, as well as by sites that are not my clients, but I know that they manage their link campaigns as simple branding efforts, without regard to PR.

A site with a limited number of high PR links will ususally get clobbered in the SERPs by a site with hundreds of low PR links from a lot of unique domains. Yes, there may be occasional divergences, but to be honest, I rarely see them, and I've seen a lot less divergence since the famous Florida update. Anyone who has analyzed hundreds of competitive link situations in detail will know this.

Again, I am not in here to debate these points. Just to shed some light from a perspective of doing this work all the time, not as a sideline.

It's a big world. What I do for my clients works. Anyone is welcome to disagree with me and follow another path. I wish you luck.

To those who have yet to make up their mind about broad-based linking vs high-PR linking, my suggestion, though, is to do some of the link analysis research that I describe above, then make your decision about how you might proceed. If you do it properly and thoroughly, I have little doubt about what you'll conclude.

Most SEO gurus who promote complex linking theories rarely back up their theories with real-life examples. They use charts and math and hypotheticals. I am describing exactly how to go about proving all of this to yourself, for yourself.

It's not complicated at all. The bottom line is this...link with other relevant sites as if Google did not exist, and as if your site traffic depended on it. Establish your brand using links. Establish a useful resource directory for site visitors, and don't demand reciprocity. That is what Google rewards, and has rewarded since their beginning. If you do that, you will be amazed at the results.

Best regards,

Dirk Johnson - owner
703-406-4698 Eastern USA
djohnson AT roiwebsites DOT com
Read "The Benefits of Reciprocal Linking - A Baker's Dozen Points to Ponder"
LinkStrategy.com <http://www.linkstrategy.com>

[Email address edited to try fool spam robots. Admin.]

...

AllanGardyne · Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 3:28 am Post subject:

Hi Dirk, Thanks for taking the time to explain in detail what you're doing and why. Much appreciated.
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Phil Tanny · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:01 am Post subject:

Yes, thanks to both Dirk and Allan for this thread. Very educational. Dirk's service seems like a good alternative to know about. I don't see any way to compete with him on price doing it yourself.

Can one get any useful idea of how much traffic they might get from a page one search engine position by buying an Adwords ad?

AllanGardyne · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:10 am Post subject:

Phil Tanny · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:43 am Post subject:

Your upcoming article sounds great Allan, looking forward to it. You've got the knack for digging up the interesting stories. I guess we could say you hooked me with the last one. Smile

I brought up Adwords in the context of buying links with the goal of getting on the first page of Google results for a main keyword phrase.

I guess the question might be, does an Adword ad generate roughly the same amount of traffic as an unpaid first page listing?

If yes, then perhaps a quick Adwords campaign might give someone an idea of what they could accomplish if they bought enough links to get a free first page listing.

As example, I've already run an Adwords ad for "nature videos" and the clickthroughs were small. So maybe that's a signal that I'd be wise to save my link buying budget for a site with a wider audience and a better business model. Not sure, just thinking out loud...

AllanGardyne · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:43 am Post subject:

Although not many people are searching for "nature videos", according to Wordtracker, significant numbers are searching for "florida travel", "travel florida", florida travel guide", "florida travel reservations" and related terms.

I assume many of those people would be interested in free nature videos of the area they plan to visit.

Looks to me as though you ought to be able to monetize that. Are you using AdSense yet? I clicked around and saw lots of beautiful photos but didn't see AdSense.
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Phil Tanny · Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:35 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the followups Allan, you're a good sport to have patience with my confused ponderings. Please don't feel any obligation to continue that past where it is interesting for you.

Basically I'm stalled in the midst of updating these nature sites because I'm well on the way to having lost confidence in the niche of Florida eco travel in terms of business.

Personally, I feel like we have something reasonably unique to offer to the niche, and thus should pass your "useful and interesting" criteria.

A few folks agree, but few if any of them will link to us out of a genuine desire to share the resource with friends. Save The Wildlife type organizations, whose sole purpose is public education and activism, fall asleep on the phone when we offer to volunteer and upgrade their sites with directly relevant video for free. I know, I know, it makes no sense to me either.

But it's useful feedback really. If you have to hard sell something to give it away, it's probably not a promising business model. In retrospect, I should have tried to sell the product before I created it. (but then I would have missed out on a ton of fun!)

I know we could work harder on this, and I know that would definitely help. We have six months and thousands of dollars invested so far. Just editing the video and creating the video site alone took 6 weeks of almost around the clock computing, which my body has yet to forgive me for.

You're right, I could expand the focus and start tapping in to more popular keywords. But now I'm venturing past where I have anything "useful and interesting" to offer. I'd be going up against a billion other sites armed only with rewritten versions of their own content.

The question really is, should I invest more time/money in to this niche, or go on to something else. If something else, what?

Readers should consider the disclaimer that I've done about 20 years worth of computing in the last 10 years and my body is not pleased.

A younger healthier person, with more imagination, and less knowledge of the history of Internet business models, might very well be able to blast their way in to some level of success with this niche.

To answer Allan's question, I'll definitely be adding Adsense to all future sites, when I figure out what those sites should be about. Hitting a popular market with something unique is past me at the moment...

Thanks again Allan, you and your board are a great resource and I'd really do appreciate having access to it.

Debs · Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 4296 Location: NY

Phil, I think your site is awesome and definitely different. Don't get discouraged, you may very well be ahead of your time! Give it a break, relax, catch up on that sleep. A week off may be just what your brain needs at this poiht.

I do agree with Allan though about a focus on Florida vacations with your nature videos as the draw. Write content about the area, attractions, accommodations, etc. Offer the videos to entice your visitors and draw them into your affiliate programs to book their vacation, rental car, tours, etc. It doesn't matter if there are a million other sites, your info is unique ... you may just need to focus on the benefits not the features of those videos.

Debs
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