Affiliate Marketing Forum

galt · Guest

I have been watching your site for quite some time. I am finally ready to start adding some affiliates that you promote. My first evaluation was of SiteSell, which you show as your number one affiliate program. I have to wonder, have you actually read the affiliate agreement?

Any fair reading of it will admit that the company has written the most one-sided agreement in the history of affiliate marketing. Initial sales are on a per-product basis, and you can only get paid for one product at that rate. If someone buys more than one product, your commission is screwed royally. If the company adds a new product and you do not specifically apply to add it to your affiliate agreement you are screwed royally. It can keep your commissions at any time. By joining, you grant it unlimited rights to use your name and logo to advertise their product in perpetuity, yet they retain very tight control of their own intellectual property. Their commission schedule is so complicated that it defies understanding, and seems designed like so many fraudulent MLM's. In fact, if the company was in the United States, it would likely be shut down by the government. They require WRITTEN notice for a whole series of events, but give no clue as to where that written notice should go. They imply that you can earn money on your own purchases on their website, yet clearly state in the agreement that they do not pay any commisison on direct purchases by affiliates.

I could go on, but why bother? My whole point is that I am disappointed in the quality of your recommendation. While this program may be very profitable for the top tier team-builders, it seems less profitable for websites actually generating customers. I hope others progarms you recommend are better, but will certainly read any agreements VERY carefully before I sign up now that I am forewarned.

Larry Chamberlain · Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 1126 Location: London, England

Hi Galt,

Your post, I think, was aimed at Allen, but would you mind if I said one or two things as a "Raving Fan" and an affiliate of SiteSell.

I agree that the commission structure can at first seem a little confusing. Basically, a customer is yours for life, if you make a sale to someone who has never before bought a SiteSell product.

Lets say that you sell someone a copy of MYSS, and 6months or 6 years later they buy SBI from my site, you would get the commission from SBI.

First time sales are paid a higher rate of commission than repeat sales.

>> If the company adds a new product and you do not specifically apply to add it to your affiliate agreement you are screwed royally. It can keep your commissions at any time<<

I think there maybe some confusion here. If you are a SiteSell affiliate you are an affiliate for all their fine products.

I may be biased, but I will say that it would be very hard to find a better affiliate program. Ken Evoy certainly knows how to look after his affiliates, providing every assistance for your success.

All the best,
Larry Chamberlain.

_________________
Why Do Most Affiliates Make Less Than $500 Per Month?
All The Tools = Business Success.

Debs · Joined: 16 Aug 2003 Posts: 4296 Location: NY

I would have to second everything said by Larry ...

If you read Affiliate Agreements regularly, you will find that SiteSell's isn't really much different from any others out there. I have read much worse from Linkshare, BeFree and Commission Junction. I have yet to receive answers from them on questions I asked months ago.

Ken Evoy has put his personal reputation on the line for all the SiteSell products, customer service, and affiliates. Rarely would you find any other site that would do the same to the degree that SiteSell and Ken Evoy do.

Well, maybe with the exception of Allan here at Associate Programs. If I have questions, problems, or just need a shoulder, this is where I head for anything to do with affiliate programs.
_________________
Learn how to turn keyphrases into quality, well-targeted articles your visitors and SE's will love with Gary Antosh's new ebook "Web Content Made Easy!"

Charlie · Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 3305 Location: UK

Hello "Galt".

Larry Chamberlain · Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 1126 Location: London, England

Hi Charlie,

Quick question...

Quote:

The biggest gripe I have with this approach, is the way certain super affiliates are promoted in the Masters Courses - designed to introduce NEW customers to SiteSell. I think there's a good chance that we risk losing the first sale and subsequent lifetime commissions "unreasonably" in this way.

When you say " affiliates are promoted in the Masters Courses -" did you actually mean "are promoting the Masters Courses"? If so, good luck to them I say, after all the Masters Courses are available for all affiliates to use, and mighty fine tools they are too.

Quote:

Debs wrote:
I have yet to receive answers from them on questions I asked months ago.

Unfortunately, over the last year, I have been having a big problem with SiteSell in this area, too. They usually reply, but their answers have been unsatisfactory (either incomplete or just "to the wrong question") on most occasions.

I'm sure that Debs will answer for herself but the way that I read her words was that she was saying that she had yet to receive replies from <b>CJ ect.</b>

Sorry that you received " unsatisfactory" answers. Shaun of SiteSell support has helped me out a number of times, once when my problem was nothing to do with SiteSell, always swiftly and to the point. I have not had occasion to use the new form mail.

Quote:

Maybe once you reach super affiliate status you'll get to receive the sort of service the rest of us are entitled to expect.

Blimey, by no stretch of the imagination am I super affiliate status, yet I have always received more service than I expected.

All the best,
Larry Chamberlain.

_________________
Why Do Most Affiliates Make Less Than $500 Per Month?
All The Tools = Business Success.

Charlie · Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 3305 Location: UK

Hello Larry.

Larry Chamberlain · Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 1126 Location: London, England

gana · Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Posts: 93 Location: India

Hi Larry,
I think i will have to agree with charlie on this. In fact i had never realized that other associates are mentioned. But the major preseller in affiliate masters course is sbi. Many people investigate further before investing $300 on it. If you have a link to one of the super affiliates, then there is a chance that they might click through it.
Of course allan is an example we should all learn from. But i am not comfortable in taking a chance with the potential customers and hope that they don't click through to others site mentioned.
But we know contexual links do work, that is the basis of affilate sites. So there is a greater chance of them clicking through. But as you said there are many links in the course. So there is a chance that they may infact go through my link. But anyway, this should not be the case as it is supposed to be used by many other affiliates.
But ken dosen't have to provide them in the first place, but he does. So i would go on to say that it indeed shows commitment on his part.
As fas as support goes, i haven't had many doubts. But of the ones i sent, i would say roughly 60% of them required repeat mail. But i got a reply in the second mail. But to my last mail, i got a reply to the first mail itself. So i don't really know if their support is increasing or decreasing in quality. But the support from sitesell for me has been satisfactory.
I have many of their products including sbi and i am happy about their quality.
But if the courses did not have references to other affiliates, it would have been great. But then he is doing my work. So i guess i should not complain.

To your success,
Gana.
_________________
free cell phone - cheap cell phone plans
Do you know about these free cell phone offers ?
Get a free cell phone now.

Charlie · Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 3305 Location: UK

Ken Evoy · Guest

Hi,

Ken Evoy here.

Just thought I'd drop a line on this interesting thread.
Thanks very much for your support, Larry and Debs. Smile

A few comments...

1) SiteSell Support has become much better in recent weeks,
since instituting changes. I don't lie -- spam was indeed
killing us. Please try it again. And it will get better as
we launch CRM Phase II and III, all in attempt to be
efficient *AND* keep our personal one-on-one style. If
you're not happy with support, there is a clear process to
follow and you WILL reach me. It's my safety valve to
measure when we have problems.

One thing to remember about support...

There are two sides to every story, when you read a
complaint. I have learned that when I unfortunately jump
down the throat of a support person who has been reported to
be as doing a bad job by a customer. When that person sends
me the entire thread, I apologize to the support person
since the fault was at the other end.

Same thing at any forum...

You have folks who just like to criticize, folks who get it
wrong, and folks who are really special in the wrong kind of
way...

We have a small number of customers who, to put it kindly,
are resource-intensive, debating and difficult to deal
with. Those who are a pain or combative or disrespectful, we
triage lower-and-lower-down until they decide to refund and
go away -- sometimes, we even suggest it -- not many, but
when it's just too much, we suggest they work with someone
else. We have a black list of customers we won't deal with,
not just fraudsters -- folks who expect $10,000 worth of
consulting time for a $300 product and are an endless source
of pain to deal with. (Those who are genuinely trying hard,
we stick with forever.)

Despite the size of our company now, life is still too short
to put up with the nasty folk -- they often end up at forums
to complain, unfortunately.

For example, I know we should be selling SBI! for not less
than $1,000. And yet, some folks worry about the most
picayune details instead of getting on with business.
When "Manager/ Brainstormer" is voted in the Top 3 features
during a recent customer survey, the big picture is that it
does a great job -- and we clearly instruct folks in how to
use their own human judgement when using the data. And
since over half of our sites end up in the top 6%, it must
be doing something right. Same with details about our
affiliate program.

The Overall Value/Quality of the SBI! bundle and the 5P
Program is so amazing, yet some people miss the forest for
the really tiny, seedling trees. There's a book here, and
I'll write it one day...

-----SIDEBAR----
One day, I'll write the definitive book,
free, on how to succeed in life -- we see so
much at this end. It amazes me how two
different people will buy SBI! today, both
starting out with the same hopes. One goes
down the wrong path, focuses on the wrong
things, etc., etc., etc., and fails. The
other does exactly the opposite, has a great
attitude, often may require just as much
support but be a joy to support, and
succeeds. I have not put my finger on the
essence, but I'm getting close.

I DO know that one of the first things will
be to suggest to "look inside" -- so many
folks blame others, while people around them
succeed using the same tools and being in the
same situation. SBI! is not a get-rich-quick
deal -- it IS an invaluable business-building
system of tools, for those of good faith who
are rady to work and build a genuine business.
-----SIDEBAR----

Oh, and by the way, we pay our support staff a straight
monthly income, not by the e-mail. Only exception are folks
who are starting out, while on probation. It's hard to
understand why folks guess and conjecture.

-----

2) Despite our size, there is still no more than 1 level of
employee between me and any employee in direct touch with
our customers and I meet regularly with staff (ex., support)
who are in direct touch regularly, in any given department.
So it's not fair to say that I'm out of touch. I have a
bigger company to run, yes, but I put systems in place to
stay in touch. And I don't know of any CEO who backs up
his support staff directly to receive customer feedback.
Nor who posts to forums and lists regularly.

-----

3) Our affiliate agreement is the fairest agreement that I
know of (at least from a company of any reasonable size -- I
can't say that I know them all). It allows two tiers,
lifetime commissions, etc. And if you read it carefully,
actually has many safeguards compared to all others. Full
details appear in the 5P Guide and Manual.

I am not sure how "galt" concludes things like "you [must]
specifically apply to add [a new product] to your affiliate
agreement," but that's just plain wrong. I think all
affiliates would tell you they have never had to apply to be
eligible for future products. And the boilerplate that he
worries about will prevent him from joining just about any
program on the Net. As "galt" reads other agreements, look
for important clauses like UNILATERAL right to act (without
even the need for good faith, which protects affiliates
against unfair treatment such as in matters like rights to
change the agreement). And like I said, for a full
explanation of the agreement, please do see the Guide and
Manual.

And I'm confident in saying that you simply will not find
any program on the Net with so many unique and effective
ways to promote products and build your affiliate business.

We WILL be simplifying the TVI structure and cutting out the
bottom 10%, after we launch Form Build It! This is the
beginning of the final push towards limiting the number of
affliates in the program, announced since Day 1 of SiteSell.

-----

4) When we talk about lifetime customer, we do NOT mean the
"life of the cookie," which is not a great deal of value
since customers delete cookies, buy new machines, etc. No,
we do a detailed db-cascade matching, looking for last 7
digits of credit card, e-mail address, physical address (an
algorithm to compress it down for easy matching), etc.,
etc. It actually gets in the way of our testing at times,
it is so hard to fool. The db-cascade matching over-rules
any temporary cookie that an existing customer might have
(after erasing the permanent one). You'd basically have to
go into a "witness protection" program to evade us. And if
you do, and if you log into the 5P Club with your username
and password, we'll write that permanent cookie right back
onto you! There are so many ways we protect our affiliates,
I've only just started here. But it's all in the goal of
"fair's fair" and not "too bad for them." I don't know of
any other company that goes this far to make sure you earn
what's due to you. I'd urge galt to think more deeply
about all we do and compare with others. Again, it's all
explained in the 5P Guide and/or Manual.

-----

5) We do mention Allan in some of our literature. However,
if you read carefully, there is always a good reason that is
meant to help others. And if you look carefully, you will
ONLY ever see an actual link to Allan's site when the reader
already has a permanent cookie (i.e., in articles read by
affiliates or SBI! owners), so an existing affiliate who
"owns" that customer (or affiliate) cannot lose that
business. Otherwise, we just say things like "Allan Gardyne
of AssociatePrograms.com fame") -- yes, a few might
copy-and-paste the domain, but we know historically that few
do. We do this to protect "temp cookie" visitors as much
as possible. I would LOVE to give Allan a direct link in
all cases, but I must be fair to ALL affiliates.

-----

6) 2-Tier programs are not MLM in Canada, where there is a
national definition of what constitutes MLM. The waters in
the U.S. are murky, state-by-state. But here's the bottom
line -- 2-tier programs do not "behave" like MLM -- the
focus remains on product, not the scheme. Allan has written
a good article on this in the past, and we've done our
homework with a prominent MLM attorney. Bottom line --
we've registered in the States that are necessary, but it's
overkill -- the state authorities have much bigger, nastier
fish to fry than 2-tier programs that behave well and stay
within the regulations. Not an issue.

-----

7) Product Development -- in fact, SBI! is fully e-commerce-
enable right now. It's easy to plug and play with hundreds
of e-commerce applications right now. It's become very
easy since we've added HTML Editor Compatibility. We've
added a lot of other functionality instead of e-com, since
the proper sequence was to develop the ENTIRE foundation
first. And we've done it at our own expense, living up to
my promise not to start renewals until 3 months after we
launch e-com, which is costing us in 7 figures, I'd guess.
Despite even intense pressure from my own board, I have
insisted on "completing" a product that already does more
than any other e-business product on the Net. Part of the
reason for that is that it is just so easy to integrate
e-com right now. E-com *IS* in development, and it will be
delivered, rest assured. As already announced, it will be
sold separately and not part of the "basic bundle" -- and
there is no obligation to use ours.

Remember...

What is REALLY unique and powerful about SBI! is not the
ability to "collect money" and it never will be (zillions of
companies do that) -- it's the ability to build a site
through a process that builds traffic and THEN converting
that traffic into income.

So, if you're waiting for e-com, don't. Start building
a site and traffic now. Plug in e-com anytimes. Switch
to SBI!-Ecommerce (or not) when launch.

Again... it all goes back to why folks succeed. Like Allan,

Just do it.

-----

Phew! I hesitated before jotting down some notes because I
had a feeling this might get a bit long. Sorry to take so
much room here, I hope this helps -- sorry I won't have time
to return and follow the thread, will be jammed in meetings
all day. Smile

All the best,
Ken

edburdo · Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 1761 Location: Bangor, Maine

Thanks for the post Ken. As an affiliate of SiteSell, it either clears up, or reinforces what I already knew about the program. I have found several affiliate programs in my 2 years of playing with affiliate marketing.

It was only in the last 3 months that I really started doing anything. What kicked me into action? Finally starting reading the SiteSell newsletters that I have been storing for over a year. :)

I have only dealt with SiteSell's support twice. Both times in question to purchasing SBI. Both times I was answered in a prompt, friendly manner. Entirely accurate? No. But I am also a techno geek, and phrasing my questions for tech support (so they can understand them) is not always easy. Once I rephrased my question, I got the answers I needed.

I just recently purchased SBI (my wife is actually using it) and I think its great. Do I have an sub-affiliates? 1. Do I have any affiliate sales? 0.

Do I plan on trying to get more sales and maybe some sub-affiliates to make sales for themselves? Sure. How? By telling folks what a great product <insert SiteSell product here> is. I haven't used all the products, but the few that I have, are all well above excellent.

But anyone, enough of my $0.02 - I gotta save some money for lunch. :)
_________________
Eric D. Burdo
They Made $6,513 a day With Clickbank Doing This...

Charlie · Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 3305 Location: UK

Hello Everyone.

Interesting post, Ken.

Larry Chamberlain · Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 1126 Location: London, England

Hi Everyone,

Returned home from work at short time ago and read Ken Evoy's reply...Wow! that's what I call a reply. I think he answers just about everything there. I didn't see the reply in the same way you seem to have Charlie, but we are all different, especially in the way we experience things, so seldom is anyone wholly right or wholly wrong.

Haven't anything useful to add, except that late last night I was taking a quick look at the Affiliate Masters Course (PDF version) with a view to checking how often Allan's link is given, and became engrossed in studying it! That is something that I should have been doing regularly. Of course I read and reread it when I first downloaded it, but there is just so much good stuff in there! I've now put it where it should have been all along... on my desktop, no excuses now.

If anyone reading this hasn't studied their copy of the Affiliate Masters Course lately, dust it off and read it, better than that last ebook you paid good money for. Laughing

All the best,
Larry Chamberlain.

_________________
Why Do Most Affiliates Make Less Than $500 Per Month?
All The Tools = Business Success.

Charlie · Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 3305 Location: UK

Hello again, Larry.

Timothy Warnock · Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Posts: 205 Location: Assisi, Italy

Hello all,

I have been reading this thread with interest, and although I like to stay out of heated discussions, I have a few observations and experiences to add to this thread.

Regarding the original post by Galt...

I too am an individual that reads affiliate agreements, and I have seen a lot of them, but I also read between the lines. What does this mean?

Well, let me give you some background.

I run an offline business in Italy. In Italy, you have to be careful when it comes to payment and agreements - I am no way implying that the Italians are dishonest, quite the opposite, they are incredibly humanitarian, generous and warm hearted people, but in certain business settings, there are a lot of very sly foxes. And I mean sly!

I deal with contracts all the time, and although I am a very informal person by nature (and have a natural distaste for things like contracts and legal matters), I have learned that a very clear contract (especially amongst friends) can save a relationship and misunderstandings. It keeps financial matters on a very impersonal level.

Often, clauses are put into contracts, for *worst case scenarios* (as Charlie mentioned too), not because someone wants to harm you. Almost ALL of my clients are, or become, close friends (just my nature), but I think you would be shocked at some of the things that are written in our contracts - it would seem that we are going to war! This is simply how legal lingo works, it is very dry and sharp.

I keep out of legal battles by:

1) Doing my end of the deal, and doing it well.
2) Applying A LOT of patience towards my clients, and constantly trying to find harmonious solutions for the both of us.
3) By NOT jumping the gun and referring to our contract in the case of disagreement, EXCEPT as a last ditch resort of desperation when it becomes evident that someone is really trying to harm me and my business.

To date, I have been paid by ALL of my clients, and I have yet to enter into a court room (knock on wood!).

I work in a sector where in the last 3 years 60% of businesses in my sector and area have failed, and most of them have legal hassles to deal with regarding clients that haven't paid. My business is doing just fine, and I am convinced it is because I followed the 3 examples above where others immediately got hot headed, and ended up going down the path of doom (the Italian legal process).

Regarding affiliate contracts...

I go a lot by intuition when it comes to evaluating affiliate contracts, and there have been instances in which I was revolted by what was written (and more importantly, what I felt), and decided to stear clear of certain programs.

I have dealt with SiteSell directly since I decided to give SBI a try almost 1 year ago, and have even signed up to be an affiliate with them. I have communicated with SiteSell support on numerous occasions, and at times, had difficulty getting a response to my first inquiry, but I always did eventually get very satisfactory service.

At one point, I wrote to Ken directly, after my first email was not answered again, and he responded in person that same day. Makes you reflect a bit...

I recently tried their new web mail system, and got a prompt reply on my first try.

No business is perfect when it comes to legalities, customer support, product development, employment management, etc. etc. etc.
But I sincerely feel Ken's and SiteSell's best attempt at this perfection - this is good enough for me.

BTW, Ken wasn't responding to me because I am a Super Affiliate, quite the contrary, I am risking being booted out of their program for lack of results. Granted, I haven't yet tried to sell their products, but I would honestly be sad if I do get the boot. So now, I think it is time for me to make a sale or two! Wink

I am impressed with SiteSell's affiliate program, and I honestly do believe it deserves Allan's #1 ranking.

I had a long talk on the phone with Bob (VP at SiteSell), and I think they do a truly fine job of walking that ever so thin tightrope of maintaining a profitable business (ego-centric), combined with a sincere desire to help others succeed (altruistic selflessness).

If ever you have the opportunity to run a business one day, you will understand how very hard a walk this is! My hat is off to them.

I hope this helps.

All the best,

Tim
_________________
Timothy Warnock

Copywriter

Advice Articles

Site Menu

Collaborate