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Sean Burns
Joined:
11 Oct 2003
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232
Location:
Sydney
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:14 am
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Hi Phil
| Quote: | | To really measure this you'd have to look at the top couple hundred results, visit each site, and make a quality judgement. Did the highest quality sites appear first? |
Also, did reciprocal linking cause sites that aren't top quality to get to the top? I'm sure there are cases of this happening but it's not necessarily affecting the overall quality of the results in a negative way.
| Quote: | | In my own case I feel our nature videos are as good or better than what PBS has online (they have great content of course but they've ruthlessly squashed it in to mush to fit it down modem lines) but they are #1 because they've got the brand, first mover, incoming links etc. Their position in the results isn't really based on the quality of their online product, in my biased opinion. |
That example kind of shows my point - PBS isn't exchanging links with anyone.
What they have done (unintentionally from a SEO perspective) is what I try to tell people to do. Create a site that people will link to. BTW, there are actually only 3 "big" sites in the top 10 for that phrase. Apart from them there's not too much competition - there's even a free site listed. You could make the top 10 pretty easily - want to exchange links? I can help you get there 
| Quote: | I just don't take it for granted that 5 years from now the free traffic, free content, affiliate income model will still be a great opportunity for any of us. This market will still be here in some form, as all the other markets I mentioned are, but it may be a minimum wage type job. Hey, I think it may be a minimum wage type job for most of us now.
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I don't aree but if I'm wrong then it's even more important to take advantage of the way things are today. Then, in five years time, you will have an advertising budget and lots of people who already know your sites. My sites would still make me more than minumum wage without any search engine traffic.
| Quote: | I agree in theory, but this sentiment seems to reflect an earlier era more than a future one.
Recall the concept of "a cool site" that fueled so much of the development of the Net. Readers and authors all pursued the holy grail of having/visiting a "cool site". That term seems sort of passe already, eh? |
You are right, the web has changed in that regard. However, we need to understand that the majority of the internet is still non-commercial to an extent and we've moved on to "useful" being the important thing rather than "cool".
I think that we sometimes have our view of the web clouded by visiting business forums like this because we are all trying to make a buck. However, we are actually a very small percentage of the webmaster "market". There are probably 3 million+ active web site owners in the world and probably only 10,000 visit business boards like these.
If you go through more "webmaster" focused boards like WebmasterWorld or SitePoint you will still see many people with the same ideals that existed 10 years ago. Sure, they are trying to make money but they also still appreciate that the web is "improved" if they create a useful site - and link to other useful sites.
Things will change but those ideals disappearing is a very long way off.
| Quote: | Between 2000 and now the once very profitable optin list biz dropped by 95%. Few if any of the industry leaders saw that level of change coming.
First mover advantage in that market isn't worth much now. Those of us who pursued it now regret the wasted time. |
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean. Do you mean people creating optin lists to sell or just site owners creating their own optin lists?
Creating your own list is still extremely valuable and, long term, is almost a necessiuty. If we think that free traffic will disappear then you absolutely must build a mailing list starting today.
My WebmastersReference list will probably have 50,000+ people on it in five years time - if free SE traffic does die, I'll still be making more money than I am now.
BTW, sorry if I completely misunderstood your meaning.
Cheers
Sean Burns |
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Phil Tanny
Joined:
22 Aug 2003
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1324
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Gainesville Florida USA
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:35 pm
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Sean,
Hey, you're making great points. I hope somebody other than myself is benefiting from our exchange.
I find your outlook to be completely plausible and appreciate you taking the time to share it.
I guess it's obvious my own outlook is somewhat polluted by the number of Net business models I've seen come and go. At some point you can start looking at this procession of business models as an endless series of one night stands, and it gets harder to propose marriage to any of them.  Clearly, it's possible to get too involved in this point of view.
Sorry, my fault for being imprecise regarding optin lists. I was referring to the PostmasterDirect model, people signing up for targeted advertising. Was a great model for 4 or 5 years, pretty much a joke now. Ezine advertising is another similiar, but less dramatic example.
Yes, I agree in regards to a personally branded newsletter like Allan's or yours. It's probably not the opportunity it once was, but it's still likely the single best response to the uncertainties we've been discussing. Good point.
Thanks for the analysis of my niche Sean, and your kind offer, a PM is on the way to you next.
Thanks again for the thread.
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AllanGardyne
Site Admin
Joined:
02 Jul 2003
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6326
Location:
by the beach, Australia
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:18 pm
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| Phil Tanny wrote: | | I guess it's obvious my own outlook is somewhat polluted by the number of Net business models I've seen come and go. |
I've watched them go and go, too, but I've been lucky, riding some of the waves.
In the pre-dotcom crash days I benefited when companies were willing to pay crazy prices to place banner ads on my site. In the early days of affiliate programs I benefited by promoting the first manual on affiliate programs. When it was easy to buy traffic for a penny a click from Overture, I did that. As the pay-per-click search engines craze spread, I benefited by having a directory of pay-per-click search engines. In the days when it was easy to make money with a newsletter, I made money with a newsletter. (Newsletters are still worth having.)
Through all the twists and turns, for me there's been one constant, one thing that's been rock solid, and that's free traffic from search engines.
I love it. It's so forgiving. You can make all sorts of mistakes in your marketing and still make money if you're getting free visitors.
I heed your warnings, Phil. They make very good sense. I know I ought to be branching out and seeking publicity in a dozen or so other ways. I will if I have to.
In the meantime, I'm going to keep doing something I know how to do, something that works - I'm going to keep building good, useful pages that get found in search engines.
The way I see it, if I concentrate on building useful pages, all the other publicity methods can simply be added later if necessary. Who knows? One day I might feel it necessary to do interviews with newspapers and magazines, start saying yes to radio interviews or (horrors!) speak at an Internet marketing conference. But I don't enjoy that stuff and I'm not going to do it unless I'm forced to.
The wonderful thing about the Internet is that it's so vast, brimming with so many opportunities that we can design our own businesses. We don't have to do stuff we don't want to - not yet, anyway.
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Allan Gardyne
AssociatePrograms.com - You're here. Explore it! |
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Phil Tanny
Joined:
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1324
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Gainesville Florida USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:04 am
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Well said Allan. Yes, each of the changes brings a challenge, and an opportunity too. That's true, and the only sane way to look at it. Learning how to see change that way is likely a key skill that will be increasingly valuble, on and off the Net.
The larger picture is breathtaking really if we have the courage to look at it.
The Net is only a dozen or so years old really, and we've only begun to see the new world that will arise out of the process of networking most of the minds on the planet together so intimately. It's likely a big mistake to project change rates from the past forward, as something fundamental in the equation has changed.
Lot's of really good things beyond our imagination could happen in the next few decades, as has happened already with the invention of the Net.
On the other hand, it would only take a few small crude nukes to erase the core of the US government. President, Congress, CIA, FBI, Supreme Court, Pentagon all major agencies etc etc, could all go up in radioactive smoke tomorrow afternoon. What would happen after that is anybody's guess.
Sometimes I feel watching all these Net business models fly by is Nature trying to give us Netizens gentle baby examples of what's on the menu ahead. Kind of like how you'd explain something to a child, the whole real story is too big for them to grasp, so you try to give them a simple little very basic example that's on a level they might be able to access.
You know what blows my mind? Thousands of years ago somebody living in a very primitive society, where knowledge was hardly a pressing problem, grasped the essence of what was coming and wrote down the little story of Adam and Eve and biting the apple of knowledge etc.
Hooboy, I'm wandering far off the topic now, sorry, but it's hard to think about search engines in any depth without eventually arriving at these larger issues.
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming! 
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smattering
Joined:
01 May 2004
Posts:
36
Location:
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:19 pm
Post subject: investing in net real estate
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An old principle of investing in real estate is to find the path of growth and get out in front of it. You could then buy cheap and allow the market to come to you, when you would gladly sell to them at a premium. It really was not difficult to see the best new market on the horizon and get there ahead of the crowd.
I am new (6 months) to the net/affiliate business and already have a sense of the model aging to a point where a good return may be difficult (though certainly not impossible) to acheive. I wish I had jumped in sooner. Sean Burns may be right about positioning now to make it difficult for others later to displace your business/site from its lofty perch. That said the world continues to look for a better mousetrap.
So I am interested in placing myself in the path of growth, seeking to get there, if not first, then at least with the vangaurd company of pioneers. Then when the crowd follows (and if your guess about the path is right they will) I will be happy to make a profit from them.
Allen, says he has been fortunate. I think it is more than that. He has positioned himself in the path of growth and has been nimble enough to jump to the next spot before the crowd arrived there too.
I have enjoyed this thread and will continue to follow it while trying to get out ahead of every one else to the next big (medium) thing.
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David Wilding
A step by step, take you by the hand plan to help you make money online. |
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Phil CA
Joined:
19 Dec 2003
Posts:
1044
Location:
Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:34 am
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Excellent thread Phil.
I'm glad Allan and Wally agreed with me that it was time to diversify the AP forum a little.
It will take some time for the new things to grow here and for many to realize that marketing an Affiliate business is no different than marketing any other business.
Unless your Affiliate sites are well established like Allan, Sean, James...
You need an edge so hopefully the new AP Forum sections will evolve for everyone's success.
I invite all to participate in the following thread.
Let's Share FREE! interesting Web Site Promotion ideas...
http://www.associateprograms.com/discus/ftopic5527.html
All the best
Phil |
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