Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject: What's with all the Whining?
I just finished reading Allan's post on the best affiliate programs and SBI! was at the top of the list. I can't believe all the negative comments posted after that article.
My SBI site is one year old this month. I knew nothing about website development, HTML, internet marketing or any other topic having to do with building a web business.
By following the Action Guide faithfully, I was able to build a website with an Alexa rating of around 300,000, daily traffic between 500-700 visitors and start making a regular monthly income from this site.
From what I can tell about the responses to this article, people were expecting to buy SBI and have the site build itself. Anything of value is worth working for and if someone truly wants to build an internet business, I can't say enough good things about buying and USING SBI.
My site will be around for a very long time, and I can't wait to see what the second year will bring!
BTW: SBI is also a great affiliate program. I sold 3 just to my neighbors who saw what great fun I was having building this website. _________________ Warmly,
Gloria
Think you're not creative or that you can't create a beautiful
home? Think again. Check out http://www.home-decorating-room-by-
room.com and use the free online home decorating course and
workbook that will help you create the home of your dreams.
Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 5839 Location: by the beach, Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject:
Hi Gloria, It's just a sad fact of life that there'll always be people who would rather spend time whining and whingeing instead of working.
I'm glad to hear that SBI is working well for you... Whoops, I means YOU'RE making SBI work well for you. _________________ Allan Gardyne
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Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject:
Yes, it seems both advocates and detractors of SBI are equally passionate. There are many such threads buried in the archives of this forum.
You guys have identified one big reason why some folks wind up disappointed, they just don't want to work, and thus no program or strategy is going to work for them.
There's more to the story. Visit the SBI home page, and you immediately begin running in to phrases like "How SBI! Makes You Succeed".
Some of the SBI criticism may flow from folks who want to buy in to the well oiled SBI dream machine a bit too much, and so they take the marketing speil a bit too literally.
Reading sales copy on the Net is a sophisticated affair, whoever wrote the copy. One has to know how read between the lines, and identify facts amidst the pulsing wave of raw enthusiasm etc.
It's nobody's fault, but the fact is that many or most affiliate marketing services are pitched to emotions, so the resulting heated discussion is to be expected.
In other words, these misunderstandings and disapointments might be like most communication failures, a group effort.
I've wrestled with this for years ad naseum, and find I have no solution. We all just do the best we can, and the chips fall where they will.
I like Ken, I really do. And I have ENORMOUS respect for his incredible accomplishments. But if you want to see major big time whining, just go on his forum, and write a post like this.
Whooboy!
Again, imho, this classic thread is a group project, not the just the work of one little group of pathetic people who don't have sufficient work ethic etc. _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
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I'm sorry, Phil, but I can't agree totally with your post.
Over the past year I have purchased more than a few internet marketing reports and products. Some of them are a total loss, while others provided value beyond their cost. One of them, a product that is advertised prominently on the web, was a total black hat product that could have gotten me banned from Google had I used it. However, I don't go around posting in forums and crying, "Poor me, I've been deceived by shady advertising."
None of these people reached into my bank account and stole my money. I freely and willingly (sometimes with bad judgement) gave it to them. One of the problems in our country today it the fact that people are not willing to take the responsibility for their actions. It's not always some else's fault! So you made a bad call. Big deal! Move on!
I am not a dyed-in-the-wool, SBI is never wrong fanatic. However, I do feel for my money I receive good value. What anyone does with the product after they purchase it is up to them. This can be said of any product, but please, don't lay the blame on the product advertising. Lay it where it belongs, on the judgement and/or the work ethic of the purchaser! _________________ Warmly,
Gloria
Think you're not creative or that you can't create a beautiful
home? Think again. Check out http://www.home-decorating-room-by-
room.com and use the free online home decorating course and
workbook that will help you create the home of your dreams.
Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject:
Hi Gloria,
Quote:
I'm sorry, Phil, but I can't agree totally with your post.
Don't apologize, if we totally agreed, that would spoil the whole thread.
Quote:
One of them, a product that is advertised prominently on the web, was a total black hat product that could have gotten me banned from Google had I used it. However, I don't go around posting in forums and crying, "Poor me, I've been deceived by shady advertising."
If you had posted your experience and conclusions, you might have saved others from the same purchase, and this might have reduced the chance such merchants would stay in business, and thus reduced the chance you would have been scammed again.
Quote:
One of the problems in our country today it the fact that people are not willing to take the responsibility for their actions.
Exactly, we totally agree here. All I'm suggesting is that this sensible premise applies to everybody.
If I write sales copy that makes somewhat unrealistic claims, then I shouldn't be surprised if such claims attract people who are somewhat unrealistic.
It could be called whining for me to complain about a process that I myself initiated. I could instead, take responsibility for my own words.
Quote:
I am not a dyed-in-the-wool, SBI is never wrong fanatic. However, I do feel for my money I receive good value.
I agree, I believe you received good value too.
That said, no product is right for everybody, and folks aren't necessarily whiners just because they are reporting some product isn't right for them.
Ideally, this conversation would be about ideas, not people.
The overwhelming majority of people on all sides are decent and basically reasonable.
But, as a culture, we all infected to one degree or another with some ideas that merit thoughtful review.
"Something for nothing" is one of these unconstructive ideas.
"The reader is different than the writer" is another such problematic idea.
What usually happens is that if we try to move the conversation past polarizing name calling to thoughtful analysis, the thread dies for lack of interest. _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
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If you had posted your experience and conclusions, you might have saved others from the same purchase, and this might have reduced the chance such merchants would stay in business, and thus reduced the chance you would have been scammed again
You are probably right on this point. Maybe I should be thinking of saving others from purchasing fraudulent or shoddy products. However, once again, what I think is shoddy may be something someone else is using to their advantage. It's really hard to know where the line is as far as Internet Marketing is concerned. It's just a free for all, every man for himself out there, and ultimately we are only responsible for ourselves whether we are a buyer or a vendor.
Now I've gone and gotten off track for this forum section so I'd better quit here. _________________ Warmly,
Gloria
Think you're not creative or that you can't create a beautiful
home? Think again. Check out http://www.home-decorating-room-by-
room.com and use the free online home decorating course and
workbook that will help you create the home of your dreams.
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 1126 Location: London, England
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:43 am Post subject:
Hi Phil,
Quote:
There's more to the story. Visit the SBI home page, and you immediately begin running in to phrases like "How SBI! Makes You Succeed".
Some of the SBI criticism may flow from folks who want to buy in to the well oiled SBI dream machine a bit too much, and so they take the marketing speil a bit too literally.
I just rushed over to the SBI home page to read it so I could post something like ? It doesn?t say that Phil, you are wrong nah, na, na, na.? And was pretty close to doing that when I realized I was reading with my ?SBI raving fan?s eyes?
So I tried reading again as if I did not have any experience of SBI, which was mighty hard to do.
Yes, like all sales copy it does emphasize the positive. That?s something it has to do, after all if Ken said, in effect, ?All I can promise is blood, sweat and tears.? How many would be persuaded to try?
On the other hand, to be fair to Ken, he does say that you need to work, use your brain and be motivated.
Quote:
It's nobody's fault, but the fact is that many or most affiliate marketing services are pitched to emotions, so the resulting heated discussion is to be expected.
In other words, these misunderstandings and disapointments might be like most communication failures, a group effort.
Yes you are right things, not just AM products, are pitched to our emotions. And some will read just what we want to read in the copy (I included myself in that.)
Some will buy SBI without taking on board that they will have to work at it, this despite Ken?s warnings. Some of those will just say ?ah well, SBI is not for me?, others will possibly feel misled, but really just saw what they wanted to see in the sales copy.
Quote:
I've wrestled with this for years ad naseum, and find I have no solution. We all just do the best we can, and the chips fall where they will.
Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject:
Hi Sir Larry,
Larry Chamberlain wrote:
others will possibly feel misled, but really just saw what they wanted to see in the sales copy.
With respect Sir Larry, they didn't see what they wanted to see, they saw what was actually there. A mixed message. Part hard nosed truth, part dreamy drivel. And then they saw the reader being blamed for any resulting confusion.
But anyway, moving along.
What is whining and negative? Like Gloria says, it can be very confusing.
I read two articles yesterday.
The "negative" article says that there are only 10 worthwhile spots on Google for any keyword, and a nearly unlimited number of people who will compete for those ten spots. Do the unhappy math, the article suggests.
The "positive" article very articulately explains that there are many keywords, and a number of search engines, so your chances are actually pretty good.
The "negative" article will discourage people from entering this field, thus lowering the competition and enhancing the income prospects for the reader.
The "positive" article will encourage more people to enter the field, thus accelerating the competition, and lowering incomes for everybody.
Are you confused yet?
Yes, confusing, and ironic.
Bonds of passionate loyalty are created between affiliates and their leaders in the field, a completely understandable and normal human process.
But loyal affiliates, do you know who your real "enemy" is?
No, not your competitors.
The people who are creating your competitors.
That is, your mentors, the same people who convinced you to join this field.
I live in Florida, which has the best weather in the US, and hundreds of miles of wonderous beaches. People have been moving here like crazy for decades, with the population doubling every generation etc.
The weather will always be good, so people will keep moving here until something else is really bad. Traffic, housing prices etc.
Everybody wants to work from home with no big investment, no boss and no employees. Your doctor probably wishes he/she could do it.
People will keep flooding in to this field until it pays less than a comparable job. Perhaps much less, because working from home is a big benefit.
Is this a negative rant?
Or a clear eyed, honest, business like, not so dreamy view of the ancient laws of supply and demand?
Am I raining on your parade, or doing you a favor?
I dunno, you tell me. _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
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Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 1126 Location: London, England
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject:
Quote:
With respect Sir Larry, they didn't see what they wanted to see, they saw what was actually there. A mixed message. Part hard nosed truth, part dreamy drivel. And then they saw the reader being blamed for any resulting confusion.
Sorry Phil, but I do believe that we see what we want to see. Am I exaggerating when I say that when we read a sales page for an Internet marketing product we want to read that it will make us unbelievably rich and do that overnight if not sooner
Of course the more we fall victim, the more hard-nosed we become and we do not so easily believe the claims. What we don?t want to read is that we actually have to work to get anywhere.
When we read (or see) an advertisement for a car do we see facts about four wheels, an engine and bits and pieces, or do we see something that will attract to us all the foxy chicks that we dream about ? or if you prefer will win new respect from your wife?
Incidentally, I don?t see the ?dreamy drivel.?
Quote:
But loyal affiliates, do you know who your real "enemy" is?
No, not your competitors.
The people who are creating your competitors.
That is, your mentors, the same people who convinced you to join this field.
Lol, I agree Phil, Ken should have stopped selling SBI after he sold me a subscription
Quote:
Am I raining on your parade, or doing you a favor?
I dunno, you tell me.
Neither I think Phil, what you say makes sense. Although working from home will never be everyone?s cup of meat. Some folks need the company of co-workers for example, others prefer to earn their bread out in the fresh air.
But I agree that being at home is attractive and the number trying to earn from the ?net is likely to grow. I?m sure Allan wrote about the future belonging to marketers in the third world.
Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject:
Larry Chamberlain wrote:
Incidentally, I don?t see the ?dreamy drivel.?
Ok, you got me. Poor choice of words on my part, my own form of hype.
I think we agree that most pitches aim at both the heart and head.
Most successful sales writers pride themselves on their ability to reach the deeper non-business parts of the reader's motivations.
After studying this emotion triggering process in great detail, and then succeeding at it, it's silly to then turn around and blame the reader for not thinking/acting in a cool logical business like manner.
We can't have it both ways.
We can't pride ourselves on our clever manipulations of the reader's primal emotions, AND lecture the reader on how they have to "treat this like a business!"
We can't constantly tell them how easy we can make it, and then be surprised when we attract folks who are disappointed when it's hard.
We can't day and night sell the idea of a site that makes money while you sleep, and then be surprised when we get folks who are attracted to the thought of not working too much.
The "whining" is a partnership between reader and writer, buyer and seller, with each poring fuel on the fire.
Thus, if we admit this, we are all in it together, in the same boat, on the same team, and the polarizing name calling is no longer needed.
Quote:
Lol, I agree Phil, Ken should have stopped selling SBI after he sold me a subscription
Well, yes, I didn't want to press the point too much, but continued sales does seem a bit rude...
Nice chattin with ya mate. _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
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Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject:
Larry, Allan, Gloria, and others:
If you wish to continue, how about this?
Teach me how to sell to you.
No. Wait. Stop. Hold up. Time out.
Not "them". Not "buyers" or "prospects" or "the public". Not somebody over there, or people in general. Not interested in all those folks.
You. Interested in you.
How do I sell hosting to YOU personally? _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
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Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 1126 Location: London, England
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject:
Quote:
How do I sell hosting to YOU personally?
Hmm, I?ve never actually bought hosting. Hosting to me is something incidental and invisible that comes with SBI.
And I think that is pretty much how you would have to sell it to me. I?m sure that I?d be turned off, and confused, by facts and figures about bandwidth and such. I?d want to be reassured about reliability of course.
I'm not sure if we are in the right forum for this topic, but since you asked the question I'll give an answer.
Quote:
How do I sell hosting to YOU personally?
Funny you should ask about web hosting. I am going to be looking into this topic in a month or two. I have never had to think about it before because it is included in the full SBI package. However, now that I have built one large SBI content site and I know how much work is involved, I've been reading about mini affiliate sites and am now looking into how that works out. I am thinking of trying this route and doing a comparison to see which method works better for me.
Because I know nothing about web hosting, I would like to know what type of support service you offer. SBI has excellent support. I only needed them twice, but they responded to my emails with hours. That would be important to me.
I would be interested in knowing why I should go with a full hosting package rather than a discounted or free hosting company. It would be great to see a chart comparing your service to other hosting companies,(not necessarily name brands) what you offer and why it would benefit me to buy your package.
A really great option would be a form I could fill out that outlines what I plan to do with this site; mini-sites, autoresponder, blog, landing pages, sub-directories, RSS, forum, etc. You get the idea. Then have a page pop up describing the best package that would fill my hosting needs according to the areas I checked off. I'm not sure if that is feasible, but I would feel the hosting company has put some thought into serving my needs and not just selling either a large package of services I don't need, or getting my business by offering an inadequate package at a cheap price just to get me in the door.
I would also like to know how easy or difficult it is to transfer domain names to or from your hosting service.
Price is not always a factor with me. Not that I have unlimited income, but I am more interested in value rather than cost. Over the years I have learned to my chagrin, that cost and value are two different animals. However, if the cost is way out of line with competitors of similar services, I do walk away.
So, there you have it. I guess that's my wish list for researching and finding the perfect hosting company. _________________ Warmly,
Gloria
Think you're not creative or that you can't create a beautiful
home? Think again. Check out http://www.home-decorating-room-by-
room.com and use the free online home decorating course and
workbook that will help you create the home of your dreams.
Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 1322 Location: Gainesville Florida USA
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject:
Guys, many thanks for your thoughtful responses. Much appreciated.
Hmm, neither of you guys asked me to help you manage your emotions, but the sales experts all tell me that's a must. Who should I listen to, you or them?
Quote:
I guess the answer is don?t sell me hosting directly, sell me something that will do this, this and this for me and needs your hosting.
Ok, gotcha. Yes, you can't fully appreciate what a hosting industry leader Ken is by reading this forum.
To really understand his place in history, try webhostingtalk.com, where there are hundreds of hosts who don't care a bit how much you make with your site, and whose sales approach is to bury you in bandwidth babble techno talk. It's an eye opener to travel between this forum and that one.
Anyway, Larry, which this, this and this is the most important to you?
As a coder I want to give what is really needed, but am very wary of "more is better" cause it seems one of the main problems I've seen on this forum is webmasters being simply overwhelmed by options, choices, strategies etc.
And, imho, one of the problems with SBI, and Ken's writing style, is that it just overwhelms some people with it's generosity. Kinda just like my posting style!
Anyway, the heart of design seems to be knowing what to keep, and what to ruthlessly discard. Nerds like me lay awake worrying about such things, help me out if you can.
What core group of things matters, really matters?
glorybe wrote:
I'm not sure if we are in the right forum for this topic
Me neither. It's tricky. SiteSell is a great example of so many things, but if we use too many specific references it often turns in to a food fight between loyalists and critics. Trying to walk the diplomatic tightrope.
Quote:
I am thinking of trying this route and doing a comparison to see which method works better for me.
What has you considering anything other than SBI, price? You want many domains within one hosting package?
Quote:
Because I know nothing about web hosting, I would like to know what type of support service you offer.
OK, thanks. Which brings another question.
The plus of large hosting companies is they have round the clock staff. The plus of small hosting companies is you get to deal directly with the owners.
In my case, you get to deal with the guy who coded every line of the software you're using. If you suggest a new feature, and I like it, you get it. But, I do have to sleep, and so won't answer a routine question in 17 minutes at 3 am.
Question is, do you care that you get to interface with the coders? Should I emphasize this, or does it scare you off? Would you rather have a room full of less skilled people who are more available?
No host can give you both direct access to the owner AND round the clock staff.
As you shop, you have to choose one.
Quote:
It would be great to see a chart comparing your service to other hosting companies.
OK, I hear you. Hmm, this is tricky. How to boil it down to a chart? OK, I'll work on it, thanks!
Quote:
Then have a page pop up describing the best package that would fill my hosting needs according to the areas I checked off. I'm not sure if that is feasible, but I would feel the hosting company has put some thought into serving my needs.
Ok, thank you.
Here's where the wisdom of "less is more" crashes head on in to the marketplace reality of "more is more."
After 12 years working online, I've given ALOT of thought to your needs.
And have concluded they are best served by abandoning 95% of all the available options and strategies, and instead focusing relentlessly on content and links, content and links.
As example, pretend you are a techno clueless reporter at a newspaper, and all you care about is stories and deadlines.
Isn't this a fine pickle for people like me and Ken to find ourselves in?
The very best advice we can give is to suggest you pretty much ignore technology, and laser focus on quality writing. Instead, we have to sell you features to survive. Yikes, too many beans being spilled here!
Quote:
I would also like to know how easy or difficult it is to transfer domain names to or from your hosting service.
This one is easy.
Your hosting service should have nothing at all to do with your domain.
Instead, you should manage your domain through a domain registrar. I use DirectNic, if that helps.
This is important, so you might want to register a domain with a registrar now, just to learn.
It's easy. You register a domain at registrar, and then use the registrar account interface to point the domain to your host. Sounds hard perhaps, but it's not these days.
If you change hosts, just go to your registrar, and aim your domain somewhere else.
Why is this important? Because you will be a prisoner of any host until you learn it. Once you learn it, you are in control of your site, and can move anytime you want, without assistance from the old host. This can come in REALLY handy...
Quote:
Price is not always a factor with me.
Wisdom speaks! Price is the factor newbies shop on. Everybody seems to learn this one the hard way.
I choose my host because they've been in business since 1995, a very long time on the Net. Dang, I spend more at Starbucks than I spend on hosting, who cares about the price?
Quote:
So, there you have it. I guess that's my wish list for researching and finding the perfect hosting company.
Thank you so much for your time. I hope something I've said above has made it worth it for you. _________________ Free Email Discussion Group For Your Site
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